Game-play: Redefine "skill" for Cosmic Break

I seen many topics and posts here on Cosmic Break and one of the most common things I seen is
"(insert name of unit) requires no skill" or "(insert player name) have no skill since he using (insert name of unit)" etc... and yet these players or units are the ones with high scores....

People complain about some units not needing to aim and such but the truth is everything is really auto aim. Your shots don't shoot where you intend to, it shoots where it thinks the enemy is going to go. This is not an FPS game so you shouldn't judge people using standards from other games....

The definition for skill is different between each game you play.
Skills for playing chess or card game is different from skills for playing a FPS game.

Now let's redefine what skill should mean for cosmic break.

To the basics... Dictionary.com:
the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well
competent excellence in performance; expertness; dexterity

So what's everybody's definition of skill for Cosmic Break?

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Here is my opinion:

Cosmic Break is more knowledge based compared to other action shooter games.
Cosmic Break uses the traditional Rock-Paper-Scissors (RPS) system, although in the most distorted way.
If you think about it, Cosmic Break is closer to n Real Time Strategy (RTS) game more than a shooter game.

In most cases it does work this way but in several cases a Rock can beat Paper if it's strong enough, but if you have a solid Paper then no Rock can beat it.

Pre-battle skills:

• Gathering information
  
• Customization
  
• Tuning

People often overlook this but preparation is a part of Cosmic Break skill, like customizing a deck for a card game. There is a reason why we have a commando instead of using only one unit per union war, so that if one unit doesn't work then we can use a different one to counter back. Knowing the meta and knowing how to counter against it is a key factor to do well in arena. If you keep play rock and keep losing, then try playing scissors (to counter paper). Instead of just focusing on using one unit, being able to play various types of units will allow you to effectively counter the meta.

Skills on the battlefield:

• Timing
  
• Dodging
  
• Knowing the stage/terrain
  
• Know thy enemy

Notice I did not include aim, since it plays a very small factor to the game when everything is auto aim. The most important thing the player can control to make accurate shots with any weapon is timing. Spam-able and/or homing weapons reduces this problem, but big guns like EVE gun requires perfect timing to use effectively. AIR and Hoppers have one big open weakness, which is when they land, if you time correctly then I guarantee you can hit them.
Everything is auto aim, so if you know where the shot is going to go, then you can dodge. Again preparation plays a role here, tuning for mobility and adding accel/loop carts help.
Knowing the stage is important, since you need know where to land safely if you're using AIR, know where is the best place safe from LND (high grounds) if you're using ART, know where is a stable place to reach the enemy if you're using LND. Knowing where and when to ambush and where to retreat will give you a vital advantage.

If not doing well in the game and others are, then you're doing something wrong. Many updates to the game changes the meta, which requires you to adapt to it. Adaptation is a important skill, not only to games but to life as well. Complaining about how the game is not balanced will not get you far, it is up to us to balance it ourselves.

3/5

I can somewhat agree to some points.

Although I don't think people like adapting to metagames that can kill your unit so fast or make it useless.

I'm going to ignore your entire post and point out that "doing well" =/= "skill"

>If not doing well in the game and others are, then you're doing something wrong. Many updates to the game changes the meta, which requires you to adapt to it. Adaptation is a important skill, not only to games but to life as well. Complaining about how the game is not balanced will not get you far, it is up to us to balance it ourselves.

So it's our fucking fault some jackass rolled an FC promo and is raping the entire team with his magnet voxes.

Okay.

Malphes wrote:

I'm going to ignore your entire post and point out that "doing well" =/= "skill"

>If not doing well in the game and others are, then you're doing something wrong. Many updates to the game changes the meta, which requires you to adapt to it. Adaptation is a important skill, not only to games but to life as well. Complaining about how the game is not balanced will not get you far, it is up to us to balance it ourselves.

So it's our fucking fault some jackass rolled an FC promo and is raping the entire team with his magnet voxes.

Okay.

You're right. What I learn from game design is that winning is about luck and skill. You can't control luck, but you can control skill. What I want to do is to help improve people's chances of winning.

Mew wrote:

3/5

I can somewhat agree to some points.

Although I don't think people like adapting to metagames that can kill your unit so fast or make it useless.

You're right. People don't like adaptation, but it's the people who can that succeeds.

If you really think the lockon system does all the aiming for you you probably shouldn't be trying to say what does or doesn't require skill. While having a lockon does change your aim to an extent it's only slight guidance, and it varies based on each weapon (most railguns/rifles/lightning guns and handy bazooka have slight to none aim adjustment, while regular bazookas/Katalina NEXT and other certain weapons auto-target so much your own aim barely matters), aim still makes a large difference in hit rate. Remember how many people used to bitch about not being able to hit hoppers? I wasn't one of them. Hell even look at your typical alpha air, 90% of them only hit with the raystag hd and erratically spray everything else everywhere; by comparison I can aim all the non-homing weapons too and have even practiced adjusting my aim so I can still target during the sideways/upside down orientations during air loop.

Of course even the hardest to aim weapons in CB take less general skill than the easiest guns in most FPSes. In present-day CB almost everything is homing, almost completely eliminating the aim-based skill aspect, in which case most of the points made in the OP are correct.

In the competitive TF2 community we refer to "skill vs meta".

Skill is defined as in-combat skills; how you move, how you dodge, how you aim, how quick your reflexes are, and how vital each of these is to the success of a class. Best example of a Skill-oriented class would be Scout, as all of these are the core components of his gameplay.
Meta is composed mostly of knowledge and decision-making; map knowledge, prediction, positioning, timing, knowing what to use and when to use it, etc. Best example would be the Medic, who has no real skill requirements but has to know a lot about when and where he should be, who needs to be healed when, when it is or isn't a good idea to push with an uber, etc.

If you apply this to CB then the majority of the game is primarily based on Meta, but the fact that an alpha air can beat an LL Blast, an Aila can beat an MLG Izuna Kon, etc. in itself proves that a skill element still exists. Opponents can be outmaneuvered, opponents can be outaimed. That is still the general definition of skill.

That all said CB is heavily meta oriented, something like 10:90 skill:meta imo. A lot of game components are neither though, i.e. Resha, Seraph FC, Eris.

there is a difference between adaptation and blatantly broken bullshit.

Suguri wrote:

That all said CB is heavily meta oriented, something like 10:90 skill:meta imo. A lot of game components are neither though, i.e. Resha, Seraph FC, Eris.

I feel I should probably expand on this a bit, while Skill and Meta are two different things, neither or both can be present. While CB is definitely mostly meta, both the meta and skill aspects are being decreased with each update. Locked bots detract from the need for Meta qualities. Homing weapons and blatantly overpowered bots detract from both qualities. Things like Vainic, Darkness Hide, EX-Blade Revive, Seraph Nova, and Vox Altus are completely devoid of both qualities (it is literally possible to get 10k+ games with resha/eris/hd seraph while watching TV and barely paying attention to the game itself).

Basically CB's getting to the point where even beneficial non-skill qualities don't matter. Just slap high beta tunes of the stats you want on a locked bot, click mouse buttons, and you too can be the best player in CosmicBreak. And in the case of Initium/FC, you don't even need to do the first part.

There is no skill in this game, tbh. The only thing close to skill is "not dying, improving ability with bots" but that's a shitty definition of skill.

Everything is right/left-click harder, while pressing wasd and occasionally spacebar.

I thought I submitted this 30mins ago.

Ah interesting Suguri, this is the first time I heard "skill vs meta" but I guess it's a term only used in TF2. I didn't say auto-aim does all the aiming for you, but I'm sure you can agree the game is less aim-oriented than other games are.

I don't think is defined correctly though, what you consider "skill" is basically "physical skill" and "meta" is basically "mental skill" but I feel that they both merely sub domains of what skill is. In other words everything you listed under skill and meta are still under what "skill" really is, but can be separated into two categories of physical and mental skill.

Here is my source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_skill-based_game

Yes I agree that is this game is more mental skill/meta/knowledge based and I know many people don't like that, but it just seems you have to progress on those skills to do well in this game.

Suki_Eve wrote:

There is no skill in this game, tbh. The only thing close to skill is "not dying, improving ability with bots" but that's a shitty definition of skill.

Everything is right/left-click harder, while pressing wasd and occasionally spacebar.

I thought I submitted this 30mins ago.

It's not exactly like rolling of a dice either XD.
This is still a game of skill instead of a game of chance.
Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_of_skill

>"This is a game of skill, not a game of chance"
._.
I'm sorry, what?
This game relies on either having luck with the garapon or luck with [Ro] cubes.
Both of which rely on CHANCE, not SKILL.
About 90% of my garage has either come from [ro] cubes or the garapon.
The only bots I was ensured to get was my starters, the chibis I bought with rt, and Misty Hollow.

To elaborate, since I'm no longer in a match, this means the tools you are given relies on chance, and therefore what you do in battle relies on that past chance. Sure, you have to have brains to use a few bots, but almost no skill is required for most bots that are released.

Luck is also important in battle. :\

Suki_Eve wrote:

>"This is a game of skill, not a game of chance"
._.
I'm sorry, what?
This game relies on either having luck with the garapon or luck with [Ro] cubes.
Both of which rely on CHANCE, not SKILL.
About 90% of my garage has either come from [ro] cubes or the garapon.
The only bots I was ensured to get was my starters, the chibis I bought with rt, and Misty Hollow.

Games are composed of both luck and skill. Luck and chance are two different things. Games of Skill and Games of Chance are entirely different. Cosmic Break would fit under "Games of Chance" definition, just take a look at my source and understand the difference.

Suki_Eve wrote:

>
To elaborate, since I'm no longer in a match, this means the tools you are given relies on chance, and therefore what you do in battle relies on that past chance. Sure, you have to have brains to use a few bots, but almost no skill is required for most bots that are released.

Luck is also important in battle. :\

Require little skill is still different from no skill, though I know you were just exaggerating it =). This game may require very little physical skill, but it doesn't mean the mental skill is absent. As Suguri pointed out, it's 10% Physical skill and 90% Mental skill.

About "luck".... players hate it, designers like it. Luck is what brings people to the game, believe it or not. Without luck this game wouldn't be as active.

>Wikipedia
>Source
What.

And following that, it didn't really help your point at all.

Suki_Eve wrote:

>Wikipedia
>Source
What.

And following that, it didn't really help your point at all.

I hate this "Wikipedia as source" = "Bad Information given" mentality.

Frankly, Wikipedia does have some good points in their articles, but you would want to clarify it by going to their external links.

SeedZero wrote:

Ah interesting Suguri, this is the first time I heard "skill vs meta" but I guess it's a term only used in TF2. I didn't say auto-aim does all the aiming for you, but I'm sure you can agree the game is less aim-oriented than other games are.

I don't think is defined correctly though, what you consider "skill" is basically "physical skill" and "meta" is basically "mental skill" but I feel that they both merely sub domains of what skill is. In other words everything you listed under skill and meta are still under what "skill" really is, but can be separated into two categories of physical and mental skill.

Two different definitions of skill here. The definition you're referring to is skill as a whole, which is certainly composed of both subcategories. "Skill" in the "Skill vs Meta" analysis refers to physical skill instead of skill as a concept.

Suki_Eve wrote:

There is no skill in this game, tbh. The only thing close to skill is "not dying, improving ability with bots" but that's a shitty definition of skill.

Everything is right/left-click harder, while pressing wasd and occasionally spacebar.

1v1 me with stock untuned Misties equipped with buckler+handy baz. If there's no skill involved, we'll go an even 50:50 by your logic.

LXE wrote:

Suki_Eve wrote:

>Wikipedia
>Source
What.

And following that, it didn't really help your point at all.

I hate this "Wikipedia as source" = "Bad Information given" mentality.

Frankly, Wikipedia does have some good points in their articles, but you would want to clarify it by going to their external links.

It's not because it's bad information, it's that pretty much he could've altered it to say whatever the fuck he wanted before he sent the link.

And adding to my previous point, it's not a game of skill anymore. VOID/Kon/AM4 Thoarla aside, all the new bots have been full of locked parts or HD, forcing you to use rigid builds instead of ones people have to think up. There is no "think what you can do with these removable parts and parts I have in my garage" because there are only 2-3 builds you can make with those bots without being called a retard.

Suguri wrote:

1v1 me with stock untuned Misties equipped with buckler+handy baz. If there's no skill involved, we'll go an even 50:50 by your logic.

>Stock
>Holding a buckler and a handy baz
o_O

Suki_Eve wrote:

Suguri wrote:

1v1 me with stock untuned Misties equipped with buckler+handy baz. If there's no skill involved, we'll go an even 50:50 by your logic.

>Stock
>Holding a buckler and a handy baz
o_O

Obviously by stock I mean parts and not weapons, but I'm fine with stock handhelds if you want to split hai-oh right she has a scythe arm derp

Suki_Eve wrote:

It's not because it's bad information, it's that pretty much he could've altered it to say whatever the fuck he wanted before he sent the link.

lol true but there's also a date of when the page has been changed XD. Most of these stuff is what I learned in Game Design class but they don't exactly have as much sources either. Besides I was just trying to help you understand distinctions between the two definitions, which should still make sense, source or not.

Suguri wrote:

Two different definitions of skill here. The definition you're referring to is skill as a whole, which is certainly composed of both subcategories. "Skill" in the "Skill vs Meta" analysis refers to physical skill instead of skill as a concept.

Yeah that was what I was trying to say as well XD. Sorry if I couldn't be more clear >_>

Suki_Eve wrote:

it's that pretty much he could've altered it to say whatever the fuck he wanted before he sent the link.

If you're worried about that, then you could just go clarify using the references at the bottom of the article. Whether you trust those links, it's at your discretion.

There is no skill in this game. You can dodge, aim, and strategize all you want, but when a single Vox or Seraph Nova can autotrack directly at your skull, it doesn't really matter. I have dodged multiple Seraph Novae only to be blown to pieces by some freak with a Blast Bazooka before I can recover, so LUCK is also a huge factor.

It also comes down to being in the right place at a good time. You can fly along whupping people's asses all day long, but stray into the wrong place and you can get mobbed by six players thirsting for your blood. And then you die. So I guess that's a little bit of "skill", knowing where you are and knowing where the enemy is.
But that's a little something I like to call "spatial awareness", and almost everyone has that to some degree, especially if you play FPSes a lot. So it doesn't really count.

It's more about "can I get the next OP bot, and if so, can I abuse it with the least amount of effort possible?" nowadays. Plus, almost every moe has fully locked or almost fully locked parts(the main exception being the LG, the BS, or possibly both), which disallows customization beyond the ACs. Thus, we don't have to improvise or try to imagine what we can do with the parts we have.

Reading the OP post made me think: why does he insist on calling it skill? Most important factor nowadays is what I'd call "common sense". CB was the first non-RPG I played online and I tried a few others afterwards, from what I've seen so far, CB never really took much "skill".

It's rather about knowing where to go at which time and what's to do there. I also don't think the aiming adjustment is the real reason this game is so easy, I think it's simply because of the entire way the game handles the camera, the giant lock-on markers and the sheer size/look of most of the bullets. I'd love to write even more, but my English is to rusty for this ._.

Skill?

Doing crown with a Beezle.

*Control+F in first page*
*Types in "roll"*
*Replaces "roll" with "garapon"*
*Not present in first post*
What the fuck?

Look, "Meta" in itself is entirely a "game of chance". You have to do that huge gamble we all call Garapon just to be part of the meta. I think that's the biggest point you missed out on because you were too focused on the bots themselves that you forgot about how we actually obtain them.

We have too many bitching threads.

Yes, the game sucks right now.
But also, you're still playing it, that's your own choice, quit bitching. :V

If you must bitch, go bitch to CS on official forum or something.

Prior wrote:

We have too many bitching threads.

Yes, the game sucks right now.
But also, you're still playing it, that's your own choice, quit bitching. :V

If you must bitch, go bitch to CS on official forum or something.

They're not really bitching + who said we wouldn't be bitching in the official forum? ._.

Hyoka wrote:

*Control+F in first page*
*Types in "roll"*
*Replaces "roll" with "garapon"*
*Not present in first post*
What the fuck?

Look, "Meta" in itself is entirely a "game of chance". You have to do that huge gamble we all call Garapon just to be part of the meta. I think that's the biggest point you missed out on because you were too focused on the bots themselves that you forgot about how we actually obtain them.

Skill can be considered the following:

• A learned or developed ability
  
• Strategy, or tactic
  
• Physical coordination or strength
  
• Technical expertise
  
• Knowledge of the means of accomplishing a task

So for your statement, saying that this game is "entirely a game of chance", are you saying Cosmic Break does not require any of that?

Because lawyers consider a game "Game of Skill" if it has any of that.
Sources:

• http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/games-of-chance-vs-games-of-skill.html
  
• http://allgamesofchance.com/skill-or-chance-games.htm
  
• http://www.ehow.com/video_4940069_skill-games-vs-games-chance.html

Many games are made of both chance and skill. I'm pretty sure we all know the chance aspect of the game, so I don't need to go in depth with that. Cosmic Break could be 80% chance and 20% skill and it is still considered "Game of Skill". It is only a "Game of Chance" only if it's 100% chance and 0% skill, meaning you do not have any control on whether you win or lose. If that is what you're implying this is what the game is, then you're posting on the wrong topic.

This topic is mainly to focus on the skill portion of the game, not chance. Whether this game require any skill or not is another topic. For this current topic, lets assume this game has some skill involved.

Even if the game is chance dominant, what we need to focus is on what we can do and not rely on luck. What are some skills (both physical and mental) do you believe is important to this game?