An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers!

A guide to LND Hoppers

WHY2HOP:
"The only reason you hop is to dodge things easily." - fireflywater, the most experienced and knowledge player when it comes to seaben.
Let me explain something about how the aim assist works in this game.
Shooting at something on the same altitude as you is 'normal' aim assist. Shooting at something BELOW you makes it easier to hit, and shooting at something ABOVE you makes it harder to hit. The less the difference in altitude there is, the less this effect is. Hopping helps LND bots(and ART bots) hit AIR bots because it decreases the altitude difference. It also gives you an aim advantage over things on the ground that are not hopping. It helps get over cliffs and rivers when you have a really shitty FLY stat(something fireflywater wouldn't know about since he doesn't know about tuning). It allows you to do the things just mentioned when you have a Kshield.
It also, as fireflywater mentioned, throws off the autoaim of others when you rapidly change altitude.

HOW2HOP:
What is the role of a LND hopper on a team? To kill things. Generally I suggest trying to kill artillery that are preventing your airs from moving forward. Or the artillery that are dismantling your team from a distance.
HIGH PRIORITY TARGETS:
1. Artillery. Generally have blast-heavy weapons which means with blast guard you greatly reduce their damage(15 cost cart on lands) and can mess them up.
2. Healers. Please shoot the medic.

You will probably be diving crowds in order to get to these artillery. You want to avoid lands that will stun lock you.
Obvious artillery with barrier shot weapons will block your shots. You have to attack them from the side or behind. Use your superior movement to get around them.

MAKIN DA HOPURS:
CARTS:
To hop, you need short boost. It's HOP. gotta hop ON A DICK because you just activated TURBOGAY MODE and nobody in seaben can hit you because they are all SCRUBLORDS.

Quick land:
allows you to jump again after hitting the ground. Or run in a direction. Or do anything without exploding during the 500000 second lag that you have on your hops without this. REQUIRED.

Quick jump:
Makes you raise faster during the upward portion of your jump. This translates into a taller hop. This translates into more distanced covered during the hop. Also allows you to hop up certain cliffs you'd otherwise be unable to. OPTIONAL.

Other carts:

Tough Runner:
Really odd cart that does COOL SHIT like let you sometimes hop out of melee stuns and other DUMB SHIT definitely worth taking if you have room!

Quick boost:
You will almost never have access to this, but it can be helpful. Kinda. Probably a waste of a level.

Stun Regain:
Highly recommend taking this when you have TGH of 16 or higher.

Anti-slow:
Slow tunes aren't as common as they once were. There was a time I may have recommended this if you had a spare level, but not anymore.

Anti-burn:
VERY helpful, since fire pillars can really fuck you up on certain maps since you'll be running into a wall for awhile since you can't turn very well.



Cores:
LND hopper cores come in 3 sizes: S, M, and L. Only reason to use L is to use certain weapons. Only reason to use S is to be using a very small core or a certain moebutt. M cores are baller since they have access to SWEET SHIT like ksheilds and L-sized zooks. Also because Accel Saber is M sized.

EYO SON! CHECK DIS NOTE!
I'm not talking about Misty Raven, Ion cores, Nemlim cores, or anything else that comes with a weapon built-in. If you are using one of those, you don't need to know about it, you just need to build the damn thing.

SMALL CORES:
Frog Lander
- The core of a bygone era. Extremely low-cost core for low-cost hoppers with low-cost weapons. Lacks quick jump and quick land. Great level5 core.

Skullroid:
- Drop core with low cost like frog lander, but gets quick land and has stun regain before level 9. Probably better than frog lander for a level 8 build.

Pawnger:
- another low-cost suicide hopper core. Has quick land.

Zero Saber BD2(ZS Custom)
- A very small core with an unusually high amount of base TEC and access to all 3 hopper carts by level 9. Sadly lacks stun regain. Now in RT shop.

Zero Fighter:
- Basically a shitty version of Zero Saber Custom, as it also lacks stun regain, but doesn't have the good base stats. Since they are both RT shop I see no reason to use this core.

Zero Fighter NEXT:
- Like the above, has all 3 hopper carts. However, it gets them at level 6, not level 9. Also has stun regain. Lower base TEC, but has better stats and is lower overall cost.

Misty Hollow (BD4=Sin, 6=summer, 7=VOID)
- Moe hopper core with a defensive subweapon. Misty Hollow SIN and it's color variations have slightly better stats for hopping than the default one thanks to increased TGH. The summer version is bad for this. Misty Hollow VOID has amazing stats for hopping. All of them lack quick jump.

LazFlamme
- UC shop moe hopper core. Compared to misty, she has quick jump for better hops but lacks the mist subweapon. She isn't as tiny as some of the mecha cores, but she is very narrow. Ritter Lazflamme is a gara version with slightly worse stats(more STR, less TEC) but gains broad radar, which can be useful.

Renny Lop
- Amazing gara hopper core series. They've got all 3 hopper carts, and her internal weapon allows her to swap her TEC and STR stats and melee things if she runs out of ammo(highly suggest using this to melee trees). Locks LG, but comes with 2 booster hardpoints. Higher cost than previously listed cores due to her internal weapons. Her LG weapon in TEC mode is an evasive maneuver with slight invulnerability, the exact action differing depending on the core. THE VANILLA RENNY CORE IS NOW IN THE RT SHOP WITH 2 SLOTS.

School Crimrose
- Locked parts moebot with only one open hand and no quick jump makes her lack in durability. However she provides a lot of support to the team with her heal subweapon. The ranged attack subweapon seems to not hit anything ever so I don't suggest using it for anything other than farming for more ammo, if you manage to live long enough to use all your ammo. I don't think this is a good core for offensive hopping, she's more of a support.


Generic M cores: The numbers are free capa/total cost.
Without QJ:
Aero Raider - 670/1135
Accel Saber - 655/1140 (Note: 2 HD hardpoints)
Fizalivan - 610/830 (Note: Base stats are shit)

With QJ:
Heracles Beetlander - 690/1245
Beetlander - 680/1215
Heavy Jaguar Arm -655/1135
Gigantinger - 610/910
Lupette -605/1190 (Note: Locked LG)


Specialty cores
Estes - 675/1290
Comes with built-in sway but you can still take hops. The melee weapon in the core turns you into a mobile meta cactus and scales off of TEC. Lacks Quick Jump.

Lucha Decho - 605/1065
Comes with pursuit bits that perform melee attacks when targeted and form shields when idle. Lacks quick jump. Amazing core.

L:
Cyclotes - 795/1345
Shino Exroad - 705/1240
Daemon - 700/1150
Deadalian - 625/1365 (Note: has 0 starting TEC)

With QJ:
Machinlet - 800/1405
Combat Freed - 725/1220
Wardus - 725/1220
Kushleb - 715/1275
Hound Dog - 680/1050(Note: very low base FLY)
Trizelion - 510/1335(Note: WB is locked)

Specialty cores:
Zero Breaker - 670/1235
Has a built-in dash ability. Lacks QJ.

Shino Exroad BD6 - 645/1240
has a built-in dash ability. lacks QJ.

Berylskid - 565/1305
Has two extra hands that can only hold primary weapons. Comes with a cool deployable barrier thing. MOST IMPORTANTLY he comes with a NITROS OXIDE ability which gives him unlimited boost gauge in addition to a massive increase in his WLK stat for a limited amount of time(ammo: 2) Taking boost run allows him to run around REALLY FAST while doing THINGS. Pretty cool for short-range weapons. Lacks QJ.

Giganberg - 740/1360
Most notable for the massive cannon on his back, which he can pull out at the cost of slowing himself. It does huge damage in a huge AoE, but doesn't have the range you'd expect from an artillery cannon. AoE is about the size of VOX ALTUS and lingers for a bit. Lacks QJ and stun regain.



~~~~~GAIDEN STAGE: SECRET CORES OF THE EMPIRE! TEACH ME LAZ-SENSEI!~~~~~

Eve:
GOD LEVEL HOPPER. Take 2 zero carts, then dump the rest into capa, hopper carts(take quick boost for lols). Has the capacity to get 40/32, has enough base strength to have 6 left over for bits. Free farming weapon. Anti-melee AoE subweapon to counter the melee shitheads that counter you. Why are you fuckwits playing LND eve as a melee again?




Weapons:
WEAPONS FOR POOR PEOPLE(UC/DROP/RTSHOP):
Handy Bazooka
- Once upon a time, one of the most sought-after items in CBEN. Now people are swimming in 3S versions of these. Ideal anti-air weapon for S-sized hoppers. Mod version(RT gara) has more ammo, this is very much playstyle and enemy team specific as to if it's better or not.

Scouter Rifle
- Expensive boss drop/uc gara item weapon with heavy stat penalty(but we don't use STR anyway). An outdated weapon, but it still does decent damage in this day an age - it's simply outclassed by it's lower priced garapon competitors.

Ballista shooter
- UC Gara item that was introduced along with lotto cubes. I've never used one of these but I'm told it's comparable to a scouter rifle, though more expensive but with less stat penalties. Mod version(RT gara) has less ammo but more force.

custom magnum
- I used this for quite awhile. It's a rather decent weapon, but can run into ammo issues.

Bazooka
- Very hard to get multi-slotted bazookas as they only come from cubes. Luckily you can now get 1s version from the shop, while you used to have to buy a whole steel rider just to get a 0s bazooka. These are your ideal weapons for M-sized hoppers when it comes to KILLING THE FAMILIES OF AIRBOTS. Runs into ammo problems though so I'd suggest maybe tuning that into it if you can get a multislot one.(I have some 2s ones in my garage, drop me a line if you want one)

delta vulcan
- rare weaponry with tons of stat penalties. If you want to use a vulcan on an M-sized bot, this is what you want. Like bazookas, multi-slotted versions of these are only obtainable from cubes, so you have to get them from bazaar. This shit does really good damage.

Negatron rifle
- a great way to deal tons of damage to other lands. Has stat penalties and may take some time to get used to hitting with.

8Vulcan
- heavy weaponry from a long-forgotten time. Weapon of choice of K1. If you can brave the wastelands of arcantus for long enough to find a 3s one, you can output quite a bit of damage from close range once it's tuned. Or you can buy one from the bazaar(again, drop me a line, I hook you up) Mod version is actually a drop and has more damage in exchange for ammo issues. Not sure how it fares since you tend to tune ammo out of the normal version.



RT GARA RICHFAG LUCKHACKER WEAPONS:
Combat Magnum
- Introduced in Sugoi Gara, this gives +2wlk which is pretty ballin, and does quite a bit of damage and has a large bullet size. I used one of these for quite awhile until I got a piercegun. Still a very effective weapon.(protipz: this actually appears in lotto cubes now. With slots.) Mod version is even better but runs into ammo issues.

Raid Rifle
- introduced in Eve Gara. Once a very good weapon, but has been surpassed by newer items. Does rather high damage when you land a full burst.

Piercegun series of weapons
- THE hopper weapon of choice for S and M bots. You can even stick it on L bots if you want, it doesn't matter. Mod version has SERIOUS ammo problems. Charge version is really strong, but takes some time to get used too, and needs ammo tunes. I'll try it out on a friend's account later. This weapon is great for shooting at crowds, and your idiot teammates cannot get in the way to prevent you from hitting things. 10/10 weapon.

Combat Gatling
- higher DPS piercegun, and a better weapon for lower-TEC bots. Performs better against slower targets where you can hit them with all the shots. Has a spinup time to be aware of. Also doesn't pierce things. Favored weapon of KEEBLERKUN. The mod version has SERIOUS ammo problems, but is useful on lowcost suicide builds.

Huge Gatling, Double Gatling, LL Bulk Gatling
- pick a gatling, any gatling, and stick it on your bot. Then kill things with it. LL bulk gatling was really good then got nerfed, so it's slightly less good. Double gat is hurt a lot more TGH reduction. Double Gat mod has no ammo at all.

LL bulk magnum
- I heard good things about this when it first came out, but I never got one and people seem to have forgot about it, but if you get one it should be pretty good.

Estes magnum
- super expensive version of combat magnum without the +wlk. Has the special property of not getting stopped by other projectiles. basically a magnum.

Striker Rifle
- expensive, but doesn't need tunes. Insane performance, no negative stats. Estes properties of beating melee attacks. Amazing weapon

Blade gun
- Rapid fire weapon with good base stats. Doesn't stand out much.


WEAPON ARMS:
Misty Hollow AM5:
- Uh, hard to describe what this actually is. It shoots this fairly fast moving disc thing directly forward. One of my favorite weapons. Has some ammo issues. Really nice power behind this. The shot is ridiculously huge horizontally, making it pretty easy to hit with.

Renny Lop AM3:
- has a piercegun in it.

Estes AM:
- a cool magnum weapon that cuts through melee attacks

Mizutama AM:
- a better version of estes AM

Weapon cores:
I'M A LAZY SHIT


parts:
Defensive parts:
Buckler:
- use this if you are S-sized and have the capacity leftover to hold it. They drop from bossruns with either 0 or 1 slots. 2s bucklers can be found in lotto cubes. 3s bucklers are very rare. All bucklers can be bought from the bazaar. Bucklers block 70 damage.

Lazflamme AM2:
- Arm with not-so-good stats but a built-in buckler. Can hold weapons. If you have extra capacity you can use this for more EHP.

Lancerlot AM2
- defensive arm of choice for M and L sized bots to use. Hopping is not restricted by having the shield up, just make sure you don't fall in the water. 2011 tactics: use an asura joint to have 2 kshields and your weapon. THESE THINGS ARE IN UC GARA NOW BETTER GET ROLLING. It's hard to express how good these things are. ALSO NOW YOU CAN GET 2S VERSIONS FROM THE SHOP WITHOUT ROLLING IT IN THE RT GARA BY BUYING THE FULL BOT FROM RT SHOP.

Force Barrier LGJ
- These are RT shop now. VERY GOOD for bots S-sized bots that can't use kshields. Learning when to use this for maximum effectiveness will greatly increase your survivability. NOTE THAT THEY DO NOT BLOCK MELEE. They will still block shit like shots from Lily Rain EVE's cannon(these shots can do 100+ damage), railguns, mega lightning guns, and other VERY MEAN projectiles.

Legs: KEEP YOSELF SMALL
S/M:
UC/drop: Ace Braver, Crabberoid, Frog Lander, Lazflamme
RT shop: Psycho Formula(my legs of choie for quite a while)
RT gara: Brachius
L:
katana max, mach knight
Thoarla/Geodora/>>>>>>OGRIEL<<<<<<
Achtseiben(lol)/quadra

Boosters: GOTTA GO FATS
Frog lander, Accel Saber, shino exroad
Assault Ox, Misty Hollow

Zero Fighter NEXT BS:
This thing is big jokes. No melee tracking, moves you a good distance. Great for using to run away from stuff AFTER you are out of stun danger. Can also be used to chase things and close distance. VERY neat toy if you can afford it and have it. Note that you fall towards the ground during the chargeup.

Sol Volca BS:
Similiar to a ZFNEXT booster, this moves you. However, it does not drop you, instead flying. Also, if you hop sideways or backwards before using it, you will move in that direction.

Jet Accel BS:
Like Sol Volca BS, maintains height during the boost. Like ZF next BS, only moves forward, but you can turn. Also goes an INSANE distance.

Swift Jet BS:
Does directional flips with large amounts of invulnerability. Amazing for quick evades, not so much for chasing and escaping.


Wonder bits:
I strongly suggest not activing your wonder bit in the air, since it stops momentum. Generally I'd suggest hop - land - activate WB - hop again.

Additionally, activating/deactiving wonder bits during the slight landing lag(the most vulnerable point of a hop) and then hopping again once you are able to move is a great way to retreat. It's saved me a lot.

Spike bit/Dual spike bit:
Probably the best bit for negative STR builds. When surrounded, the bit will damage and knock back things during the startup and de-activation invulnerability, so cycling it twice can clear space and allow you to escape.

Anti-Homing bits:
fuck resha/aquila girl/etc

Melee bits:
In normal rooms, melee bits have a habit of being destroyed instantly by the massive AoEs that exist. In TRIAL rooms, this isn't the case. Melee bits provide decent damage, more disruption, and can hit things that you are not aiming at. They are best used on short-range hoppers when you are crowd-diving.

Dual rifle bits:
Again, these are normally killed instantly, but hang around for a lot longer in TRIAL rooms. They do decent damage when used from a distance. Better when you are using midrange weapons and shooting from max distance rather than crowd diving.




HIGH PRIORITY TARGETS:
I mentioned these at the start, but I'm going to go over them again in more detail here, at the very bottom.


Kagura
Kagura is a whore. Kagura is a cunt. [s]IMO kagura is the most broken piece of shit in this game.[/s] she got nerfed l0l. She actually beats hoppers, something arts really shouldn't do. Anyway.
Run at her. Don't run too close, because she has a SUCK SEVENTY COCKS AT ONCE button which will stun lock you and kill you in a pillar of fire or some shit, I don't really know how it works. Don't get too close. You want to stay close enough that large lateral movement(aka hopping) fucks her aim, but far enough that she can't stunlock you. This is actually REALLY HARD since you are teamdiving to get to her. Just try your best.

Mialy
Get close enough that hopping fucks her aim(she has to charge.) Pierceguns work best if they have the bits in defensive position since you'll wreck the bits and her, otherwise the bits eat your damage. She doesn't have any built-in escapes or panic buttons, but some will have short boost and accel roll to escape. Just follow her and keep shooting while dodging her team.

Illumis
core is bad up close, but many will be either alpha builds or pump zook carriers. Alpha builds with rouch AMs are extremely hard to deal with since you cannot assault them from the front. Just try to get them to shoot at you so someone else can hit them in the back, or get behind them as they shoot at something else. Pump zook has pretty good stun chance, so these builds CAN duel you. Try to hit her more than she hits you.

Moniqua
No homing subweapon that has bad tracking up close, no chargeup on her main to abuse, Moniqua is pretty good at defending herself. If you have blast guard, you should win, otherwise this is neutral. after you kill her(because you are THE BEST) run away since she'll try to explode on you or something. Or just WB dodge it.

Swimsuit Lily:
Dies up close lol. MIGHT HAVE A SLICEGUN WHICH WILL DESTROY YOU.

Natascha:
If she has her shield up, just run behind her and shoot her. If she doesn't, just hop a lot to fuck her tracking while you shoot at her. She's pretty dedicated anti-air so there isn't much to say about her.

Lumeria
has a barrier she likes to sit behind. Really annoying to deal with since she can jump from one side to the other. You generally need help to prevent her from doing this, or you can kill the barrier. Note that if you pass through the barrier, you will suffer from powerless.

Chloe:
Tends to sit on her deployable platform. Shoot her from below, what the fuck is she going to do about it? That's right nothing.


Other opponents:

Resha:
IF YOU HAVE A GATLING you can seriously FUCK UP resha bubbles if she tries to vox from close range, run behind her and shoot her in the back. Stay in meluc's blind spot.
Bazookas and slower firing weapons(like magnums and pierceguns) won't do as well against a vanic barriers. Short burst rifles also aren't the best choice. IMO, if you don't have a gatling, this isn't your fight.
ACTUALLY WITH THE LATEST NERF IT IS. FUCK THIS BITCH UP.

Airs:
Clearly, bazookas are the best option here. However since you can hop, anything can do well. I dislike gatlings here since if you are fighting at max range(as in, you are only in range when hopping) the damage is less than that of a piercegun, magnum, or bazooka.



LONGHOPPING: HOW TO ABUSE GAME ENGINE ODDITIES YAY
eyo baby nerds it's me winty again with an all new update about something someone told I forgot to add. This is a SUPER SECRET TECHNIQUE etcetc that is caused by what may or may not be a glitch in the game engine.
Anyway, if you using an empty subweapon at the right time during aerial movement, it oddly extends your momentum. This can be done to make your hops further and slightly higher at the cost of shooting for a time during them.
ONLY CERTAIN SUBWEAPONS CAUSE THIS EFFECT.
here's a -short- list:
1. Broken Kshields <- the easiest to abuse
2. Movement boosters
2. Ion buff subweapon <- Ion OP even without water
3. force barrier LGJs
4. Patty lop puppet summon

I'm not going to go and double check everything in the game, figure it out yourself. It doesn't work with standard misty for some reason, even when the weapon is empty it causes her to fall straight down.



THE NEED FOR SPEED(or lack of it)

Final hop breakpoint is 30walk, as long as you have 1 fly. If you have 0 fly there is a negative affect on your hopping!
Because hopping is NOT running, tuning to 36 walk(final running/walking breakpoint) means that once you start hopping, your extra 30cost in mobility stats vanishes. These stats, and the cost invested to get them, are only good when you are not hopping. I'm not trying to imply that you'll be only ever using the directional keys to hop, but there are times when you will do that, and times when you won't.
In my personal experience, 32 walk serves perfectly fine.


video of hopping:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d17o8zmw44c

>no mention of pawnger

shit guide 0/10

Suguri wrote:

>no mention of pawnger

shit guide 0/10

I'll kill you myself.

Missing mentions of Tonosama/Pawnger/Cyclote.

Missing mentions of Delta Vulcan (not the greatest thing but still worthy of a mention), Negatron Rifle (pretty damn potent) and Custom Mag (still has its place), few of the mod weapon versions could do with more clarifications and differentiations, some such as Ballista Mod, Combat Mag Mod and 8v Mod are different enough to really worth more explanations.

Quote :

Double gat is hurt a lot more TGH reduction.

Probably missing a word.


Where's Sheeno?

Maybe mention revenge tunes.

Hound Dog has 680 free capacity after six carts. That's higher than every single core you even listed, aside from Beetlander where he ties.

Daed has only 625 free capacity after five carts.

If you slap the same parts between them, and only serve to fiddle some otherwise-High-Tech-Alpha tunes into High Tech Beta to accomodate for Daed's better base FLY stat, Hound Dog will generally have higher TEC and Quick Jump and costs only around 1050, while Daed will have higher HP and TGH and costs 1365.

reV mentioned Cyclotes, so while we're on that train, I would guess that Machintlet would probably be worth a mention for L-LND cores, if you're going to suggest something as ginormous as Daed. His stat array only looks a bit better than Hound Dogs, but he has the currently second highest carted capacity in the game at 800, which gives him a lot of room to play with fitting expensive stuff. He also gets Quick Jump, Anti Burning, and Stun Regain. He'll cost a ton at death though.

Pawnger is comparable to LazFlamme but with head slot.

@Jade
not sure how you got hound dog to have higher TEC. When I slap on identical parts and near identical tunes(again adjusting to keep 1 fly on hound dog) i end up with identical wlk and fly stats, 1 more tec on dead, and large amounts of extra tgh, str, and hp on daed, as expected of something that costs so much.
The "capacity issues" comment was badly written, yes. He ends up being a 1k~ cost L-sized hopper with relatively low TGH for an L-sized hopper because he lacks the capacity to tune TGH to make up for his lacking base stats. I've re-written this to be simpler and not cause this confusion.

@machinlet
I wasn't around for it but holy shit this core's stats. added.

@sheeno
i had no idea this existed. added.

@tonosama
not really sure why you'd use this thing when you have the other options already mentioned that actually have stun regain.

@cyclotes/custom mag
not sure how I forgot these.

@negatron rifle
somehow I never noticed this was LND usable, but I've used it on supports.

@delta vulcan
I think I saw one of these in a lotto cube once. Is this actually usable? I'd like more information.

@sivaschin
Only at low-end. it's not comparable high-end. I'm adding it anyway since I'm not sure why it wasn't there to begin with.

Also added estes.

>mfw it's called yfw

>yfw that's 27tec

LazFlamme Am4(or was it 3?) maybe?

K shield for S size. How much Hp does it have anyway?

iKray wrote:

LazFlamme Am4(or was it 3?) maybe?

K shield for S size. How much Hp does it have anyway?

40 or so. Less than a buckler. It's shit, don't use it.

AM2 has a built-in buckler and is slightly amusing, but not that optimal.

AM2's actually pretty worthwhile. The shield's only 30 HP but the arm doesn't sacrifice much cost efficiency for it (and that 30 HP shield can block a hit that'd normally do a lot more than 30)

If you can find a way to fit it in a build, or drop stats to fit it in, it's good, yeah. They are exceedingly rare so I don't expect many people to have them.

Actually they've been in Gara 3 for months now.

They used to be hella rare though yeah

Cool guide, keep'em coming Winty!

Tonosama requires much less tuning to become usable compared to skullroid/pawnger as a zombie hopper.

For a locked part hopper, ZSG HD is pretty nice. She gets all hop carts.

Quote :

40 or so. Less than a buckler. It's shit, don't use it.

your reasoning is bullshit
if you want to name a valid reason to devalue laz-k-shield you would need mention the potential 3 slots of a buckler
and only the slot difference hardly makes it "shit, don't use it." tier

on a side note: yes, i intentionally quoted the other two sentences, too.

Aurum_Sol wrote:

Quote :

40 or so. Less than a buckler. It's shit, don't use it.

your reasoning is bullshit
if you want to name a valid reason to devalue laz-k-shield you would need mention the potential 3 slots of a buckler
and only the slot difference hardly makes it "shit, don't use it." tier

on a side note: yes, i intentionally quoted the other two sentences, too.

let me break down what you told me in arena.

>the point of a deployable shield is that it blocks stuns, so you put it up when you need it to block a stun, not when you need to save HP.

This statement, in and of itself, is fine. The ideas behind it are things that people actually use(though you claim they don't.) But they don't use them on laz shield. They use them on force barrier LGJ, which is actually usable for this purpose.

Laz shield will block a single stun. This is because anything that does enough damage to stun you will probably break the shield. Any time a stun actually matters for a land hopper is stunlock - if a second stunning attack does not follow the first, you will just hop away after the stun duration ends. A single, random stun will slow you down since you have to press the buttons again. It may result in taking additional damage. But it's consecutive stuns that actually get you killed from stuns, otherwise it's just damage piling up that kills you.

Let's assume, however, that this was not the case. Let's assume there jet hammers really did result in stunlock and there was a magical situation where you could block a single hit, and a single stun, and you would live because of it. Even here your theory wouldn't be useful due to the rather large time it would take to deploy the shield in this situation - another reason why your ideal use of this part is better served by force barrier(which doesn't block melee. I mean, an on-demand shield that blocked all damage and melee stun would just be retarded.) Laz shield has a startup time where the bot using it can't do anything. You'll probably take more than 40 damage during that startup if you tried to do it on reaction to a threat. If you could find a place to safely put the shield up, why not just keep running from said threat instead of wasting time to put up the shield? I mean, you must have plenty of warning if that is the case.

Your statement on how "I'm simply not using it properly" doesn't make any sense because the way you suggest using it is just not practical. If I wanted a reactionary shield to block incoming burst damage and projectile stuns(MB airs alphaing you, LRE/Magfrit shooting you with their cannon, someone hitting you with random hypershotted weapon) you might as well just use the force barrier, which is instant, has multiple uses, and absorbs more than 40hp worth of damage.


tl;dr laz kshield is shit.

so thats your main problem, you only thought of what i said as a tool for a hopper thats being used under fire

no wonder you didnt get it, because like you said, thats what >short time deployable shields< aka force barrier lgj, victorl core and that one Land Arm are for

its no wonder that you couldnt understand the basic idea of what i said since you are basically thinking the complete opposite of me, you based your whole train of thought completly on hoppers (since this is what you play the most i guess) while hoppers didnt even cross my mind once when thinking of a deployable shield (except lancerlot shield which is like i said because of its stupid high amount of health which makes it to attractive to keep active the whole time - i would call it bad game design contrary to the other k-shields)
its also explaining how you came to the conclusion that "blocking a single stun does not matter" when its the difference between catching your prey and canceling the attempt to do so on many melee setups
but like i wrote back then: i was simply giving out the very basic idea of how it works and mistakenly i assumed that people where not biased to that amount to one playstyle so they would tailor every piece of information into their own point of view
well, i mean, if you actually pointed out who you are and why you think that way instead of acting like a total retard i might have gone out of my way to explain you the details

on a side note:
since your edit and my answer to it seem to be out of place feel free to post screenshots of the conversation, even though you didnt really add anything useful for the conversation to it ingame, people would at least be able to follow what i wrote

I didn't take screenshots, sorry.

Once again you have not provided any actual information. You have yet to provide what it's actually used for - obviously not hoppers, or any sort of gunner land, since the playstyle is similar and my points apply regardless. Are you saying it's for melee? Not only is that irrelevant to this thread(which is about hoppers, and the laz kshield is shit for hoppers, just a note), it's also stupid. For melee you want HP, not stun protection, from your parts, since you'll likely be using CV tunes to avoid being stunned and then getting HP back via stun regain. How does a 40 HP shield, that, by your own description, is good for blocking one stun help with this more than simply using a buckler would?

the whole reason i even started to post in this thread is the general way most people in here post. you wouldnt write "its shit for hoppers", no that would be way to easy, instead you write "its shit" which no matter how you read it is extended to any use of it at all.
i will go ahead and say i also did this because i know that this is the general thought of laz k-shield in this forum, so to say i ninjad your thread a bit since you gave such an amazingly good oporturnity for it.
[on a side note: not once where you making any connection to hoppers in the "discussion" ingame, but lets ignore that]

why is it superior to a buckler for a melee you ask? that is a very good question with a very simple answer. because of my option to choose my opponent i will also be able to judge if i can do it while being stunned or if i MUST avoid being stunned at any cost to be able to reach my enemy. while buckler now offers 60 health at the very intial attempt i will do in a game the k-shield will allow me to chose if i want it at the very first attack or if i want to safe it for a harder enemy because my first target of choice is not one i expect to able to fend me of anyways. this allows the player to act much more freely then a buckler would since you wont be limited in target choice after your first attempt (succesful or not).

i will not bother going into melee, toughness, crimson veil, hp and stun regain since it will not matter for the design aspect of the shield. and i think to recall i allready wrote enough on those matters anyways at other occasions.

now for another point of interest: laz k-shield has about 1.6 hp / cost while buckler has 1.5 hp / cost (i told you yesterday allready, i know, but i think this is relevant info anyways) and its main drawback would be slots for tuning
now im not very experienced with hoppers but i can at the very least see use for a shield like this very cheap land run and gun bots, so they might work for a similar kind of hopper build, too.

Aurum_Sol wrote:

because of my option to choose my opponent i will also be able to judge if i can do it while being stunned or if i MUST avoid being stunned at any cost to be able to reach my enemy.

What?
So, not only are you able to specifically control the movements of enemy plays and pick your fights(this is VERY different from the concept of positioning - you are talking about 1v1 fights here.) you also know the exact stats, tunes, and carts of every enemy bot in the arena, because I don't think there is any other way you can make such a precise calculation otherwise.

Aurum_Sol wrote:

i will not bother going into melee, toughness, crimson veil, hp and stun regain since it will not matter for the design aspect of the shield. and i think to recall i allready wrote enough on those matters anyways at other occasions.

"I'm not going to talk about how melee bots function when it comes to survivability"
excuse me, we are discussing a shield intended for use in melee bots, right? How this shield, are your special method of using it interacts with this process does matter.
also where?

Aurum_Sol wrote:

now im not very experienced with hoppers but i can at the very least see use for a shield like this very cheap land run and gun bots, so they might work for a similar kind of hopper build, too.

suicide builds = use a beezle arm and a buckler. EHP of this combination is 65. EHP of laz AM4 is 55. Why are you using this again?



As to my mentality: Here's a challenge. Show me a melee build that uses laz AM4 where you can't just use a kshield instead. This means a melee build that either uses an SS-sized weapon, or an S-sized core with locked melee but unlocked arms. The melee you use must actually be viable.