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 An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers!

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Akhenderson
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Akhenderson

Male Posts : 864
Join date : 2011-12-12
Age : 25
Location : Somewhere In Illinois

An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers!   An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 EmptyTue Dec 04, 2012 7:00 am

@Winty wrote:

What?
So, not only are you able to specifically control the movements of enemy plays and pick your fights(this is VERY different from the concept of positioning - you are talking about 1v1 fights here.) you also know the exact stats, tunes, and carts of every enemy bot in the arena, because I don't think there is any other way you can make such a precise calculation otherwise.
I don't know where you got that assumption from. What he's talking about is similar in terms of how a general Pokemon match is played. Pokemon are sent out, and you can make basic assumptions of how they are played. IE someone sends out a Gyrados and one can assume that it's either a bulky build or a Dragon Dance build. Besides, not like it's any different than Cosmic Break. If someone sees a Mialy, they're going to assume "Fly build" and "Tec based." If someone sees a MBG, they assume "Walk based" and "Str based" because that's just how they're generally known as, and because they got those common faces, it's just a basic common assumption used by many to classify different characters. This is what it means to "pick an opponent." Analyze what they can do, make basic general but logical assumptions on what they are capable of, and decide whether or not to engage them in combat.

The thing he's trying to explain is, if he's choosing a target (Let's say a long art unit), would he be able to kill the unit outright without taking too much damage, or will he have to rely on the shield? With KLazShield, he has the option to choose whether or not he wants to put the shield up in case he doesn't want to take damage that would get him stunned. Otherwise, he can just go up straight for the kill and not worry about the shield.

The one thing he is trying to explain is that because of the option to choose whether the shield gets deployed, it makes it better than the buckler in different situations. Because the buckler is always out, any stray damage you take can become detrimental and that shield might blow up in a time of crucial need. Your HP can be restored, but your shield HP cannot.

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Winty
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Winty

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Location : california

An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers!   An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 EmptyTue Dec 04, 2012 7:48 am

@Akhenderson wrote:
[The thing he's trying to explain is, if he's choosing a target (Let's say a long art unit), would he be able to kill the unit outright without taking too much damage, or will he have to rely on the shield?

It's a 40HP shield. If 40 HP will make a difference, he is not estimating, he is mathcrafting, which he can only do if he knows the EXACT damage something will do, and the exact damage something will take. Did this lone art do high boost beta or high boost alpha? Having 1 str as opposed to having -4 str will determine if he can WB dodge 2 attacks as opposed to 1, which is where 40 HP(basically a single hit and a single stun) will make a difference. Did he do a tec tune to get from 39 to 40, or did he do a ranger tune, which would give him 15 more hp? These are the things you need to be aware of to make his theorycrafting make sense. This is how much extra survivability 40hp and 1 stun gives you.

My competitive pokemon knowledge is a little old(i played 3rd gen netbattle in middleschool/highschool) but what he is saying is basically the same as knowing the exact IVs the opponent selected in order to get the right hidden power. "oh aerodactyl has 130 base speed and maxed EVs in speed, but he wants to run 70 base power hidden power ground so he only has 27 IVs in speed since he used the default setting for HP ground instead of customizing it to drop a different stat instead, so my jolteon will go first and OHKO him for an easy kill." Sorry, no.
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Aurum_Sol
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Aurum_Sol

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An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers!   An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 EmptyTue Dec 04, 2012 8:16 am

@Winty wrote:
@Aurum_Sol wrote:
because of my option to choose my opponent i will also be able to judge if i can do it while being stunned or if i MUST avoid being stunned at any cost to be able to reach my enemy.

What?
So, not only are you able to specifically control the movements of enemy plays and pick your fights(this is VERY different from the concept of positioning - you are talking about 1v1 fights here.) you also know the exact stats, tunes, and carts of every enemy bot in the arena, because I don't think there is any other way you can make such a precise calculation otherwise.

considering the large amount of moebots in the arena which allready takes a huge load of work away and the general idea an experienced player has to what cores are around as well as the possible help of broad radar or friendlys, locking on the enemys as well as experience from the prior matches will give you a basic idea of what to expect from most encounters

even you would do that while playing melee, except your bumrushing or attack any kind of enemy no matter what it is

the very idea behind playing many ouka builds was to pick on single enemys either by taking a target of opporturnity or by creating one, dont act like 1v1 is uncommon in this game in 15v15 rooms

Quote :

@Aurum_Sol wrote:
i will not bother going into melee, toughness, crimson veil, hp and stun regain since it will not matter for the design aspect of the shield. and i think to recall i allready wrote enough on those matters anyways at other occasions.

"I'm not going to talk about how melee bots function when it comes to survivability"
excuse me, we are discussing a shield intended for use in melee bots, right? How this shield, are your special method of using it interacts with this process does matter.
also where?

because from the very start i never even once suggested using it as a mean to increase your survivability in an offensive situation, which was really damn obvious. either you should start reading what i write or stop trying to molding it into something that fits you better.

Quote :

suicide builds = use a beezle arm and a buckler. EHP of this combination is 65. EHP of laz AM4 is 55. Why are you using this again?

stats non reliant to tuning, obviously

Quote :

As to my mentality: Here's a challenge. Show me a melee build that uses laz AM4 where you can't just use a kshield instead. This means a melee build that either uses an SS-sized weapon, or an S-sized core with locked melee but unlocked arms. The melee you use must actually be viable.

why would you try to get rid of nonmelee core abilitys as well as trying to get rid of the option to utilise M sized weaponry on weaponless S sized cores
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An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers!   An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 EmptyTue Dec 04, 2012 8:18 am

Is Nemlim a good hopper?
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Winty
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Winty

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Location : california

An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers!   An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 EmptyTue Dec 04, 2012 8:29 am

@Aurum_Sol wrote:
considering the large amount of moebots in the arena which allready takes a huge load of work away and the general idea an experienced player has to what cores are around as well as the possible help of broad radar or friendlys, locking on the enemys as well as experience from the prior matches will give you a basic idea of what to expect from most encounters

even you would do that while playing melee, except your bumrushing or attack any kind of enemy no matter what it is

the very idea behind playing many ouka builds was to pick on single enemys either by taking a target of opporturnity or by creating one, dont act like 1v1 is uncommon in this game in 15v15 rooms

1. read my previous post.

2. I don't play melee because it's stupid

3. Since when do oukas have arm hardpoints to use the part in question?

Quote :
because from the very start i never even once suggested using it as a mean to increase your survivability in an offensive situation, which was really damn obvious. either you should start reading what i write or stop trying to molding it into something that fits you better.

"shields are not meant to increase survivability"
I'm sorry, why are you using this part again?

Quote :
why would you try to get rid of nonmelee core abilitys as well as trying to get rid of the option to utilise M sized weaponry on weaponless S sized cores

1. You said this is for melee

2. Because if the weapon is M or S, you can use it on an M-sized core and just use a kshield.


LXE wrote:
Is Nemlim a good hopper?
Original/campaign nemlim has 190 range on her main weapon, which is, like, really bad. Really, really bad. I guess you could skip the EIWs and stick a random weapon on her if you wanted too.
Nemlim mellow, however, has a bit more range(enough to make a noticable difference) and is one of the few bots in this game that pretty much hard-counters everything. It fucks other hoppers with charge delay, it fucks over airs with charge delay, it fucks over arts with charge delay(though you should automatically beat arts by being a hopper.) It destroys melees with it's counter. It's one of the dumbest, most overpowered things in this game.
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Trill
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Trill

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An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers!   An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 EmptyTue Dec 04, 2012 8:45 am

Except Nemlim comes out at like 1090 without Capa tunes, and most builds end up with massive HP and a meatsheild of a WB. She can be very annoying and nice when played right.
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Aurum_Sol
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Aurum_Sol

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An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers!   An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 EmptyTue Dec 04, 2012 9:18 am

i prefered floatdash for normal nemlim, though
because floatdash is so much easier to let your bits being hit by melee without taking damage yourself
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Winty
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Winty

Posts : 8419
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An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers!   An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 EmptyTue Dec 04, 2012 9:59 am

Added Zero Fighter NEXT core and booster. Shoutouts to krayfish.
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AthenaWyrm
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AthenaWyrm

Male Posts : 71
Join date : 2011-02-06

An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers!   An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 EmptyTue Dec 04, 2012 11:21 am

how2hop

roll your face on the keyboard
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That_Wiesel_Guy
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That_Wiesel_Guy

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An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers!   An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 EmptyTue Dec 04, 2012 11:29 am

Sol volca wings
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NotZetsubou
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NotZetsubou

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An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers!   An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 EmptyTue Dec 04, 2012 1:41 pm

@Winty wrote:
It's one of the dumbest, most overpowered things in this game.

i thought she just average good because of low cappa and locked parts

maybe i should try to play with her >.<
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Winty
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Winty

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An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers!   An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 EmptyTue Dec 04, 2012 2:57 pm

@That_Wiesel_Guy wrote:
Sol volca wings

don't have, no comment at this time.
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Suguri
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Suguri

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An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers!   An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 EmptyTue Dec 04, 2012 3:05 pm

sol volca bs is basically next bs only better
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Guest
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An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers!   An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 EmptyTue Dec 04, 2012 3:42 pm

@Winty wrote:
Added Zero Fighter NEXT core and booster. Shoutouts to krayfish.
Oh my. Embarassed

EDIT: Speaking of Sol Volca, how come no one has recommended his LG? They're comparable to Katana LG, but for S/M size.

Take a look at the sizes on an Accel Saber BD.
  • Ace Braver LG: http://puu.sh/1x9rl
  • Sol Volca LG: http://puu.sh/1x9qe
  • Katana LG: http://puu.sh/1x9sI


An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 1x9BT
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nzlk
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nzlk

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An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers!   An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 EmptyTue Dec 04, 2012 10:23 pm

iKray wrote:
@Winty wrote:
Added Zero Fighter NEXT core and booster. Shoutouts to krayfish.
Oh my. Embarassed

EDIT: Speaking of Sol Volca, how come no one has recommended his LG? They're comparable to Katana LG, but for S/M size.

Take a look at the sizes on an Accel Saber BD.
  • Ace Braver LG: http://puu.sh/1x9rl
  • Sol Volca LG: http://puu.sh/1x9qe
  • Katana LG: http://puu.sh/1x9sI


An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 1x9BT

Availability as a UC drop I would assume.
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Phantomhive
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Phantomhive

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An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers!   An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 05, 2012 1:44 am

GIGANBERG?
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Winty
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Winty

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An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers!   An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 05, 2012 2:19 am

@Phantomhive wrote:
GIGANBERG?

non habeo
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Relict?
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Relict?

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An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers!   An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 05, 2012 8:24 am

@Aurum_Sol wrote:
i prefered floatdash for normal nemlim, though
because floatdash is so much easier to let your bits being hit by melee without taking damage yourself

Trying it out. Seems to work much better than Short Boost in that regard.

What about Sway, though?
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Aurum_Sol
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An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers!   An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 05, 2012 8:27 am

when i played normal nemlim there was only old sway, i didnt really try it, but it should definatly work with new sway and high walk, still floatdash alone blocked any thought of nemlim as hopper for me ;p
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Relict?
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Relict?

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An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers!   An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 05, 2012 8:30 am

Okay, thank you very much (:
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Winty
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Winty

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An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers!   An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 05, 2012 6:46 pm

update: added misty hollow AM5.
Please suggest other detactable weapon arms. Note that I may not have them/may have no idea what you are talking about.
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Trill
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Trill

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An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers!   An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 05, 2012 8:46 pm

Renny AM5 is a Piercegun but despite not having it I think you can see it's worth using:

85 cost
15 Force
210 Ammo
260 range
340 speed
400 Int

20 HP
-1 str/2 TEC/1 Fly/2 TGH

Pretty godly for a weaponized arm with a handslot, for that cost especially.
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Suguri
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Suguri

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An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers!   An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 05, 2012 8:55 pm

*am3
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Trill
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Trill

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An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers!   An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 05, 2012 8:56 pm

where the fuck did I get AM5
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An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers!   An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 EmptyWed Dec 05, 2012 8:57 pm

@Trill wrote:
where the fuck did I get AM5

Here.

@Winty wrote:
update: added misty hollow AM5.
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An overly long and completely worthless guide to land hoppers! - Page 2 Empty
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