What makes a bot broken?

Fireflywater wrote:

The ability to not be able to fight back or retreat.
An enemy has a long ranged weapon and is fast, like Aqui-lag girl. She can dodge your missiles and your rifle shots, you can't use your more accurate close range weapons because she's too far. You can't run away either because of how fast she is. You're helpless and chances of survival are very minimal.

It is possible to fight back from meleers, retreating is difficult though.
It is possible to retreat from defencive ARTs, attacking is difficult.

attacking arts is difficult?...well that's new for me

lag shield, it's annoying when ppl start to warping, dealing double damage, and goes through wall/hide below the lnd, becoming nearly untouchable and took half of your team and, or ammo before u can kill them
superb homing, anything with superb homming can be considered as broken (Ah-chan blaster, feng mei slicer (if u on ground, well feng mei has low survivability so she's not OP), alba HD ) but every them has some counter, just pray to GOD one of your team mate want to bring one of their HARD counter

oh, i just notice feng mei slicer become ineffective if u run toward her, and ah-chan blaster when u close enough, anyone can confirm it?

Kitouski wrote:

Rolling an ART with at least 20 fly/wlk or so and a smaller size with some missiles that don't move at the speed of dirt, a LND with a Handy Zook, an anything with a Linear Canon, a slimmed down Saggy, an AIR with a mini zook and plenty of other ideas isn't "pure paranoia induced by a scrub-proof bot.", it's playing anti-air correctly period. Unless everyone is gearing their ARTs to fight Mach Knights nowadays you don't make the bot "specifically for AG", you make the bot "right", and that's that really.

Since you make it sound so trivial, how about carry on with that "common knowledge" and sharing the results here? Nothing to lose, right?

808 wrote:

Whilst playing "Rock, Paper, Scissors" it is ridiculous to ever use paper just because you're afraid of someone using rock.

CBen escenario isn't that simple, because it's possible for paper to get defeated by rock and so on (bot type triangle is deceptive unlike RPS).

Suguri wrote:

Kitouski wrote:

^ 100% That.

20 wlk is pretty much is enough to dodge AG. If you can't, YOU are doing something wrong.

LordShade and I really need to get around to recording a vid for this. The only times it shouldn't be dodgeable for you are if there are more enemies backing the AG up, or terrain is restricting your movement.

Kitouski wrote:

The only thing that's broken imo is EVE. She has everything a bot could strive for and she gets it all pretty easily. Great mobility with high fly and Float Dash, great range with her railgun, great damage with a little bit of charging, it's fast, and she has a great defense with that shield. She's all purpose and great at all of those. Best of all, the user aims the railgun, not some computerized homing.

Low DPS due to the charge time though.

And EVE shot is still restricted a bit by auto-aim, sadly.

an idiot AG ll come alone and this is not a 1 v 1 game isn't it

SkyPanic wrote:

an idiot AG ll come alone and this is not a 1 v 1 game isn't it

That would be me

The thing about the Aquila Girl you're forgetting is that, even without homing, that blaster has the highest DPS of just about anything in the game, on a small, agile core. All those builds you mentioned are pretty much standard anti-small-air fare, but, aside from a Seraph, an AG is going to give those builds a tougher time than just about any other small air. That's not to say that you can't build properly against it (though I have never been able to get 20 walk on an Art from my lack of luck with tunes), but that it's simply more powerful than other, similar bots.

Easy of use and how necessary tuning is are two big factors in making something broken. Aquila Girl and Toybox Girl recieve a lot of hate because they have stupid mechanics that make them incredibly simple to play (homing blaster, 400 range high damage homing aoe subweapon) and recieve a lot of free stats (fullboost, TBG HD weapon) so any Joe who gets one is suddenly playing at the bots maximum potential, when on other bots with the same maximum potential but a steeper learning curve they'll only do average.

In all honesty this game is at the stage where everything is broken so it's balanced, it's just a few of those broken things are so easy to use they stand out from everything else.

Ton of anwsers. I'll give them in parts :

- Random bot equilibrance. When you see the two BB arm version. Just crazy, one does 40 damages in flame mode, other does 120. Okaaaaaaay.
- Players want easy and safe. This mean hopping, Seraph mode, Aquila girl boost refill, Small sizing, New Moebots, etc.
- Some kind of weapon do not worth their efficience. Large bazooka do not cost enough, So does Auto beam rifle and mini bazooka.
- Mini bazooka himself is a kind of heavy umbalance : he should NOT be allowed to air units.
- Meta game break the circle : top tier AIR units are heavily on the top, protected from almost everyone beside some heavy anti air, mostly roflstomped by vanguards. ART are okayish, and EVE/TBG tends to put them on shoot&safe style, breakin most enemies. LND are just useless beside some exceptions such as Vanguard (actually the most OP LND, and still look like a Air rider of LND's) or Ouka (Do her job, but that it all). SUP are either totally useless (Greinaut, unfortunately) or a bit too strong (Nicole well played, so does recent moebots SUP)
-The staff balance about 1% of all the situation at every patches, when 99% + the new bots are still remaining problematic.

1. ART suppose to be have massive firepower but lack on mobility, once ONE have superb mobility while retaining wtf 200++dmg_in_single_hit or wtf_got_stun_locked_from_400_range or another kind unevadeable/supreme firepower, they are broken
2. AIR supposed to be have high mobility and only vulnerable when landing but lack of firepower, but once ONE given wtf_they_wont_land_for_minutes + wtf_sonic_mode_nothing_can_hit_them + wtf_they_stun_me_every_hit + wtf_they_out_damage_my_art_in_terms_of_firepower + wtf_my_teammates_AA_suppose_to_be_suck_badly, they are broken
3. LND especially melee, wait no LND is OP as long as U keep your distance, no 200++ dmg received if u keep at least 100 range from them, and they weak vs AIR, but one ONCE given ability to catches AIRs and/or ability to use psedo_invicibility called lag shield AND abuse them, they are broken

Midona wrote:

- Mini bazooka himself is a kind of heavy umbalance : he should NOT be allowed to air units.

disagree,
remove this and u'll lost one and the only UC alternative wich able to supress that_which_only_need_limb_to_be_game_warrior_AIR_bots
most of that kind of bots won't bring one (atleast those player which one abuse homming), put one or two great rapid and eq on fast air bots, they'll able to be a threat for those broken bots, put one paralizer proven to make them HATE u so much

its overpowered (or broken) when its MAXIMUM POTENTIAL exceeds that of fellow bots by a noticable amount

yes, thats right, MAXIMUM not "loleasytoplay" or "evenscrubscanuseit"
plain and simple its maximum performance

if you dont have the luxury to balance the game for all levels of play, you would usually balance it for the top level so you can prevent any REALLY overpowered stuf

PS: stop putting things like "lag" or the general inability of most players to use weapons into something like the word "overpowered", those things are plain and simple either lag or people that are unable to hit shit, these things are in no way connected to the bots

Quote :

disagree,
remove this and u'll lost one and the only UC alternative wich able to supress that_which_only_need_limb_to_be_game_warrior_AIR_bots

nonsense, theres still several other bazookas (for non airs) and a seraph will be superior to aquila girl with or without a bazooka in most cases

Melee bots wouldn't be broken if most of the airs didn't ignore lnds like they do.

Try to hit a lnd? Screw that, I'm hitting that lone fat art, because he's the only art and they are sooooo slow.

Really, I see lnds running through the whole map, under a bunch of airs, and the airs doesn't even try to hit them, they won't even change course.
Soon there's a bunch of people with low HP and arts jumping like mad people.

Fat arts users are at fault as much as airs ignoring lnds are as well. And it actually happens quite often.
Now the only airs that rarely let a lnd pass by are alphafags, but those just mindlessly attack everyone, because they can.

trufax,
all "broken" bots can be supressed if we have one decent team
but decent team is a bit hard to find nowdays,

some bots can abuse lag to the annoying level, it's not fun for victim when melee dmg register twice due to lag
that's why I bring winberll most of time atm, bind them and make them eat bullets is fun, once I trap one queen of lag, one fencer and one hatigram machine at once when three of them rushing to my PS, all of them died, cost me 200-300hp and one limb (hatigram machine can still move a bit even when binded)

Aurum_Sol wrote:

nonsense, theres still several other bazookas (for non airs) and a seraph will be superior to aquila girl with or without a bazooka in most cases

yes, if u've your wing, if not (even worse for ppl who failed badly to tune-up their seraph, ME) good luck
i think someone here on AH-chan guide thread write homming blaster simply out class most weapon as a single gun even in AIR to AIR combat, ah-chan only need to eq shields and probable some gun to farm ammo supply
.-.
and I want to know someone who able to hit AH-chan with UC bazoka from ground while they are out range your zoka cuz they are flying HIGH, HIGH, HIGH, did I say HIGH

Nymph~ wrote:

trufax,
all "broken" bots can be supressed if we have one decent team
but decent team is a bit hard to find nowdays,

some bots can abuse lag to the annoying level, it's not fun for victim when melee dmg register twice due to lag
that's why I bring winberll most of time atm, bind them and make them eat bullets is fun, once I trap one queen of lag, one fencer and one hatigram machine at once when three of them rushing to my PS, all of them died, cost me 200-300hp and one limb (hatigram machine can still move a bit even when binded)

Aurum_Sol wrote:

nonsense, theres still several other bazookas (for non airs) and a seraph will be superior to aquila girl with or without a bazooka in most cases

yes, if u've your wing, if not (even worse for ppl who failed badly to tune-up their seraph, ME) good luck
i think someone here on AH-chan guide thread write homming blaster simply out class most weapon as a single gun even in AIR to AIR combat, ah-chan only need to eq shields and probable some gun to farm ammo supply
.-.
and I want to know someone who able to hit AH-chan with UC bazoka from ground while they are out range your zoka cuz they are flying HIGH, HIGH, HIGH, did I say HIGH

first: if you cant hit them with uc bazooka they also cannot hit you with blaster anymore because you should be able to dodge it on that range easily even with a not so fast bot

second: i have no use for a seraph without wingbuild because the wings are what makes the bot for me, if i play a seraph without wings i can also just play some other random air

and like i already stated, the lagging is not included in bot balancing since this is a performance issue of the respective player most of the time, i saw nonlagging hartigarm machines (or rather, i saw one non lagging machine >.>) and kutens / normal jikuns, those bots just have melee attacks that lets them move at an extreme speed over a decent distance and the players that use that most likely have comps that simply cannot handle exactly that


to the other dude:

Quote :

Melee bots wouldn't be broken if most of the airs didn't ignore lnds like they do.

you said melee bots are broken and they are not broken in one sentence, way to go (i share your opinion of the "not broken" though, since i agree to the whole "airs are retards" statement to some extend)

Locomotive X. The god of anti-air. His core weapon drops Aquila Girls to the ground with no problems. If you get a team who isn't braindead, you'd be able to kill tons of Aquila Girls.

Klinkin wrote:

FreedomFighter wrote:

Player.

if they respect each other and care for community this won't be happen.

like you got knife what will you use? use to chop to cook something or stab someone in the neck?

Community or not, CB's balance sucks. If this game had not a single player, certain bots and builds would still be overpowered. One major problem that hasn't been mentioned yet is that the CBEN server shares balance changes with the CBJP server, and that all balance changes are based around CBJP feedback and the CBJP meta. CBEN's meta is different (not quite sure how), so certain bots are more powerful in the CBEN meta than the CBJP meta, turning a strong bot there into an overpowered one here.

i would like to invite you to CBTH........if you think CBEN imbla wtfbbq gameplay frustration holy shit i'm mad.
try CBTH, you gonna love CBEN.............

TL:DR:

All bots are not invincible, and despite whatever DPS or how fast they can run, they can still die.

What makes em broken is how easy it is for them to evade death and rain DPS on people all day long. How easy it is to get them is kinda factored but every "broken" bot is popped into gara. So it doesn't matter because ppl will whore rt until they get what they want.



Can we stop turning this into an ah-chan argument? There's one thread all about her that keeps refusing to die in community and she's been here for a few months now. Let's just deal with it and move on please.

Frustration?

Try making it a game to kill as many as possible in a match. I do that all the time. It's like playing duck hunting. And if you can't, reload your bot with something more suited to our newfangled duck hunting and get to work. I know a lot of you guys have box missiles.

idk but for me i think the major problem is player want to find bot that can dominate everything on their own without
thinking about team-mate or support, this made some bot can go OP if they thinking like this.

since they try to build a bot that good all-around against everything, unfortunately only few BD that manage to do this.
some may require high skill to control, some require high amount of tune-up.

i'm sorry to speak about Ah-chan one more but her homing blaster is bullshit, she can have FBoost i can deal with that
but homing weapon that doesn't require any skill or aiming to use? that funny............

also some bot, build made for their job, thinking about Anti-Aircraft Gun yes it kill Air quickly but unable to do anything against Armored Tank that's why we have Anti-Tank Gun to back up this.

player doesn't what's his/her role, some shoot everything that in their screen without check situation awareness.
for godsake if you're Art just focus on Air, stop shooting at LND it make their TGH kick in and reduce damage.





"If both software fight against each other, one with better hardware will always win"

Aurum_Sol wrote:

its overpowered (or broken) when its MAXIMUM POTENTIAL exceeds that of fellow bots by a noticable amount

yes, thats right, MAXIMUM not "loleasytoplay" or "evenscrubscanuseit"
plain and simple its maximum performance

Then the only things that are broken are MB airs and EVE. At top level play with competent teams everything else (except most melee) is pretty usable without being unbalanced as long as it's built well.

And broken doesn't necessarily mean unbalanced. I hate seeing players who do well solely because they are using a certain bot not because they have any actual skill and I would call that `breaking' the effort to reward relationship set by old standards.

Ugh, this thread is now just a down right debate war. "AG BROKEN", "NO U, LRN TO AA", etc. I thought this thread was just for statements only. I'd request a lock but I don't know if that appropriate or not. Everyone has troubles with certain enemies. Some would have trouble with Aqui-lag girl, some would have trouble with hoppers, some are too cocky to say they have trouble on anything. Just stop.

Aurum_Sol wrote:

to the other dude:

Quote :

Melee bots wouldn't be broken if most of the airs didn't ignore lnds like they do.

you said melee bots are broken and they are not broken in one sentence, way to go (i share your opinion of the "not broken" though, since i agree to the whole "airs are retards" statement to some extend)

I guess that you get what I mean?

Many times I'm the only art user on the room. Or even when there's 2 of us and the airs are doing something that doesn't mean killing lnds, lnds pretty much have their way open to hunt us and deal 50~150 HP (maybe even more?) hits.
Sure we can run, or shot.
When I use all weapons, it doesn't stun them all that much (or even deal all that much damage). But my arts doesn't have 2 missile AM, 2 box missiles and 1 internal missile weapon.
Even when I make arts faster, it's still hard to run away from them.

What do? Punish the team mates for being useless and do nothing when a lnd is running after you.
Lnd runs after me, they do nothing? I run after my team mates, while the lnd runs after me.
Since many times my arts are faster than most of the arts on the arena (because they don't even try to make them good, they just put a bunch of weapons with high force and it's done), I just pass by my team mates and the lnd will eat them alive, while I run to a different place to hit some more airs/arts (I try not to hit lnds unless they get on "our territory". Trying to hit lnds faraway is something that I find a waste of ammo. That's airs job, not mine. Not to mention many times the damage dealt to lnds that are far is pretty mediocre.).
Some times I run after some air of my team and some lnds even try to kill the air. And rarely, the air gets killed. >_>

This might sound really bad, but really? I'm risking my ass to deal with the enemy and keep them in their place, while my team mates camp behind me/under the ps and won't even help me? WAKE UP CALL! THIS IS A TEAM BASED GAME! YOU ARE ON A TEAM BATTLE! YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING FOR YOUR TEAM!



So, yes, melee bots are broken, yet they aren't. (it's more of a situational thing, or feeling)
They will be broken if people keep ignoring them, just because they aren't being targeted by them (which makes it feel like they think that this is 1VS1. It's not.).
Yet, those 100+ hits are really annoying. Even more when they are part of a combo.


Also, I have a Geograsis F-Type, I only changed the parts, haven't done a single tune (it's only level 4 as well). I'm what people would say "he sucks with airs", which I really do, since I don't really play with airs unless on specific cases.
I can just pick it, and score over 1k (over 1k might not be a lot for some/many people, but for me is enough. I get on top 10 as well.) by flying between the back and middle-front of my team position. It's even easier when there's enough fat arts on the back. I just simply shot any incoming lnds and airs (when they are attacking the fat arts and lnds aren't attacking, else I focus on the lnds first). I rarely need to shot an enemy art, and only do when they are at a good position that can be threatening to my team, or when the battle is being slow, so I harass them to drag them out.
And I finish the battle with zero cost, and only die if there's a really good art user on the front, if I'm chased by many airs (haven't tuned, so I'm slower and fatter than most) or my ammo is gone.


If I am to mention 1 of the most annoying melee bots that I would call broken, while ignoring lagkuns, I'd say that it's Byne girl. Small, good melee (at least from what I see, it's a pretty good attack, and packs quite a punch), armored and the ability to equip more weapons. Even if I ignore her melee, just being small and having that armor makes her that good (even if it has draw backs).



I'm actually being more honest on here than I usually am. (I say the word broken too many times)

What makes a bot broken? Look at Aquila Girl, that's my answer. There's lots of things as well, but it's a pain to mention them, because I don't want to have to write more than I already did, or will have to.



Oh, and CS needs to be more original with art weapons. Everyone gets nice weapons except arts keep getting the same old zooka and silly missile weapons (some are good, others are pointless, others will torture you if you don't have enough to tune all those slots).

also this game doesn't have "Weak Against" Type it's just weak against weapons type

Art build to kill Air because they use shit load of Explosive weapons and Air didn't weak against Explosive, they just
don't have Blast Guard Cart.

if Art really resist to Blast and Beam by themself then i think it's fine but instead we do need to upgrade those to make
us resist.

Art can be killed by other Art if one does not upgrade Blast Guard.
Lnd can also be killed by Art if one does not upgrade Blast Guard.

if you give Lnd same weapons as Art use, they can murder Air better than Art because of their mobility.



thing that fail are game mechanics system, on the late version of CB Air Type can do thing out of their own power like killing Art which should not happen.
Why Art? they're fat, they're slow, even you made them fast but they'll not fast enough to counter.
Air refuse to shoot Lnd because they move like cockroach that hard to hit with lazy or brainless people.

as you can see, Art bot keep getting stomp around (except Eve)

Correction, badly built and badly played arts get stomped around.

Go play JP, you won't see many airs over there. Feel free to ask yourself why that is.

bippusuta wrote:

Aurum_Sol wrote:

its overpowered (or broken) when its MAXIMUM POTENTIAL exceeds that of fellow bots by a noticable amount

yes, thats right, MAXIMUM not "loleasytoplay" or "evenscrubscanuseit"
plain and simple its maximum performance

Then the only things that are broken are MB airs and EVE. At top level play with competent teams everything else (except most melee) is pretty usable as long as it's built well.

And broken doesn't necessarily mean unbalanced. I hate seeing players who do well solely because they are using a certain bot not because they have any actual skill and I would call that `breaking' the effort to reward relationship set by old standards.

basically this, though, i dont own eve, nor do i encounter them often enough to judge that bot without being biased
i would add albatreos though, that things a monster in every aspect

Quote :

Ugh, this thread is now just a down right debate war. "AG BROKEN", "NO U, LRN TO AA", etc. I thought this thread was just for statements only. I'd request a lock but I don't know if that appropriate or not. Everyone has troubles with certain enemies. Some would have trouble with Aqui-lag girl, some would have trouble with hoppers, some are too cocky to say they have trouble on anything. Just stop.

i agree, just stop, you first >.>

@ god is a cat girl (wtfname), yes i get what you meant but i would not call a bot broken just because most of the community cant play (thats because those are to things that are unrelated to each other)
i also agree with the weapon choice of arts you mentioned, there are some interesting ones but overall there could be much more, i personally would like magna grenades in a weaker, handheld form (oh well, i would be happy already with rt shop beamgun mod) just because i want a beam based weapon for my L-Arts that i can actually get without it being to freakin strong (tell me if theres another but the only ones for L-Art would be beamgun mod [not aviable most of the time] and beamrifle [not suited for mid to close range] right?)

edit: @ suguri, i guess its because there is more than one decent art on a team so they can cover each other making annoying circling ineffective ._. to bad our art population wont allow that

Suguri wrote:

Correction, badly built and badly played arts get stomped around.

Go play JP, you won't see many airs over there. Feel free to ask yourself why that is.

Because of the hopper meta with zook ;3

Suguri wrote:

Correction, badly built and badly played arts get stomped around.

Go play JP, you won't see many airs over there. Feel free to ask yourself why that is.

i'm quite surprise in JP that i'm only "AIR" unit in 30-30



CBEN and CBTH lack of "Know your role" player.