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 Alpha-Artillery Guide

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Axanael
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Axanael

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PostSubject: Alpha-Artillery Guide   Alpha-Artillery Guide EmptyMon Mar 31, 2014 2:39 am

Here is Ax's approach to alpha artillery in 2014.

Step 0.5: Prepare yourself for people that will try to tunnel you with lands or with other things out of spite for alpha artillery. This cannot be avoided or hardcountered with artillery consistently, but we can take steps to make this harder on their end. Will be addressed in an update. But seriously, prepare yourself for angry lands.

Step 1: Obtain a core suited for alphastriking.

-This will require among other goodies, two very crucial things. One is the Moving Burst cartridge, and the second is mobility carts of choice, usually picking between Short Boost with a combination of Quick Land and even Quick Jump cartridges, or Float Dash.

--The mobility cart will depend on your style of play and the kind of alpha you are trying to accomplish. Float Dash is generally good for strafe firing, where your objective is to hurl a bunch of bullets across a wide area to damage and deter enemies advancing. Short Boosting will allow usually for easier skirmishing, where you are actively engaged against one or several enemies. Float Dash is also good if your core has Enhance Internals that you want to take, which usually leaves you porked on cartridge selections for anything else past capacity as it takes less carts. I've heard that Moving Burst is not required for hopping alphas because you can fire bursts while hopping, but I find it much easier with Moving Burst. Same for Float Dash, but again, much easier with Moving Burst.

-Core requisites other than said cartridges are usually good capacity, and while a core weapon certainly is not required, it's highly popular and pretty useful. Capacity is a given considering the point is to slap on a bunch of weapons and use both mouse buttons most of the time. Weapons cost a lot.

Step 2: Decide on alphastriking style.


-Avoiding specialized weapons, namely Roar arms, which have good synergy with each other but not with much else, you will have to decide on how you want to alphastrike. Mainly this consists of, from my observations, two different categories.

-Category 1: Classic Alphastriking. This category involves the idea that all weapons are used in conjunction to supplement each other and all contribute towards overall damage output. This includes generic Albatreos with Handy Bazookas and AMJs/BS weapons, Ragna Barrets, etc.

-Category 2: Specialized Alphastriking. This category, although still all weapons contribute towards DPS, usually have other weapons focused to augment the effectiveness of one main weapon. What comes to mind with this are the Scram Launcher Mod Muchi's with Rouche AMs and Ragna AMs. Generally, the AMs are designed lower the amount of damage you sustain, the core for supplemental damage output, and the Scram Launcher the main source of damage and stun.

Step 3: Piece the Bot Together.


-This involves the planning of the build. What are you going to put on it, and for what purposes. It's kind of up to playstyle, and there are like a bajillon weapons, but here's a list of stuff that comes to mind that are usually used in conjunction with an alphatriking core.

-Handy Bazooka: The true effectiveness of these is questionable, you really can't beat 40 cost 25 force bazookas. They're readily available, low costing, and will do work at close to medium engagements. Use to increase damage output and stun at close range.

-Ragna Barret/Rouche AMs: These are both Barrier Arms, and though behave a bit differently, both serve the general purpose of intercepting enemy bullets and reducing damage sustained. Rouche AMs are S sized and cost a lot more than Ragna Barret AMs, but have a faster fire rate and barriers are up the moment they are fired, compared to Ragna Barret's barriers that appear when the shot explodes. Both contribute towards damage output.

-Burst Missile AMJs: Insane damage potential increaser. Homing and does ridiculous damage with decent ammo supply for laughably low cost. If your target turns a corner or does an aerial maneuver, chances are if anything connects these will.

-Sturbanger AMJs: Practically Ragna Barret AMs but dualfiring from the shoulder. Blocks shots with barriers upon explosion.

-Mini Blast Bazooka: As the name suggests, a miniature, lower costing blast bazooka. Not as low cost as Handy Bazookas, but provides a more useful AoE in the fact that it's a Blast Bazooka.

-Flint Musket: A low cost counterpart for Handy Bazooka if you want shell based damage. Also useful due to no negative WLK stat and +1 Fly stat at only 45 cost. Less readily available multi-slotted.

-Artilus AM2s: Can't speak from experience here, but I've heard they hit like a ton of bricks.

-Sturbanger BS2 (The MK I/II one): What this does, other than increase DPS with a BS slot, relatively rare, is two crucial things. One, it causes booster trouble when it hits, making it more difficult for pesky airs to escape. Two, it has an odd firing angle and homes in onto its target. This means, one, it can hit things at stranger positions, such as how Dagomure BS hits circling airs more easily, and two, circumvent Rouche and Ragna AMs for the most part since they usually hit from the side, avoiding the bullet interception.

-Dagomure BS (Original): Does a good job of hitting stuff flying above your head, good damage output, and you can't really go wrong with dual blast zooks. The 2nd Dagomure's variant however, wouldn't recommend as much. Much more expensive, no longer blast zooks.

-Hygerkun BS: Also fires from strange angles and centers in onto its target avoiding bullet interception. Bullet travels terrifyingly fast as well.

-Dugdriver/Grand AMs: If you don't want handhelds these provide solid shell damage. They aren't as soulcrushingly strong as other choices, but fare consistently against things with Blast Guard since nobody in this day and age takes Shell Guard.

-Gathima AM2? (The Missile one): Dugdriver AM minus the melee with more force. Upper missile also fires at an even sharper angle.

-Scram Launcher Mod: Unholy homing proximity sensor explosion that stuns airs well. Better suited for specialized builds because very costly. Augment with Beam Cancellers/Barriers of choice. Also works standalone.

-Ogreil AMs: Stranger weapon of choice. A 280 range 570 speed railgun complimented with a 290 range 260 speed missile. Lack of handheld slots. Weapons are not tuneable, and for their high performance, low force all around. Good choice for ranged combat but will lack the touch of soul crushing damage.

Stuff to avoid:

-Misside AMs: Bad performance, terrible ammunition, not worth the cost.

-Sturbanger AM: Doesn't like to hit things, extremely fat. And I mean extremely fat.

-Greinaut AMs: For 60 cost you can have either 12 force curveguns, which say 245 range, but don't like to hit that far, or Ragna Barret AMs, which block out bullets.

-Dagomure BS2: From what I've heard, not only is it fat, it's very sketchy in terms of performance.

Cores: With regards to cores, anything technically works, but commonly spotted are Ragna Barrets because the core weapon is strong and causes Charge Delay, Albatreos for core weapon and large capacity pool, and Amateus Muchi for capacity pool, small core size, Medium sized, and core weapon. Don't let that stop you from picking something else though.

There's more I want to talk about but for now I'm going to get some rest. I'll update this with more information tomorrow.

To the new players, think you got the basics down? Good, because now we're going to go more in depth.

Classic Alphastriking can be categorized into two subcategories.

1. Close Range: At close range, you will focus more choosing weapons with high force, stun, and fire rate. Close range alphastriking involves you choosing a set of weapons that will create the highest DPS possible with less regards to weapon speed and range. This generally involves dumbfire weapons that have high force. This is usually a high risk, high reward play-style, which involves good battlefield awareness and a good set of mobility and escape options, especially if you opt to not take Broad Radar for Enhance Internals or Guard Carts. In this day and age, due to the mass amounts of enemies having shot blocking capabilities on their alpha artilleries, going close range without things such as Ragna Barret AMs, Rouche AMs, Sturbanger AMJs, or something that can block bullets is an extremely risky and dangerous route to choose.

2. Long Range: At long range, you will focus more on weapons that have good speed and range, and the trade-off for this is, on average, lower force weaponry. Homing is popular for this sub-category considering they will compensate for the long ranges where enemies have more time to move before bursts actually land. Overall, this is theoretically a less dangerous route, considering you should be out of range of melees initially, and if you hang back with your team, which you can stay in the center mass with due to your higher range, enemies will have a harder time ganking you. At this range, beam cancellers/Rouche barrier arms are still good, but will not be as effective unless there are airs shooting back at you from range or harassing you at a range closer than your comfortable firing range. Beware anti-homing airs, aka. Monica Gold Wing and Seraph Variants. You'll have a bit of a harder time hitting these.

Why and how do you pick? Other than play-style, there's some simple, critical differences between these two. Long Range alpha arts are effective through a wider range, are less risky to play, and requires less reflex and battlefield awareness, considering you should be at a safe range. However, Close Range alpha arts have near unparalleled damage output among artillery types, and hit hard and fast. In general, one burst from a close range alpha art will do a considerably larger amount of damage than a burst from a Long Range alpha. Also, they do not rely on homing, so non-homing targets will be less of an issue. Note that your effective range for Close Range is also much smaller, but you do not necessarily have to force yourself into range. Being patient, and protecting supports from harassment airs is also an option for Close Range. The supports will express gratitude by providing heals when you and other teammates need them too.


OK, now that you have a basic understanding of Close and Long Range, let's go in depth with special weapons and parts that help your performance.

1. Over-ranging: As Psyguns have unnaturally long lock-on range, Psygun HDs are commonly used for 'over-ranging'. The concept behind this and homing weapons is this. A numbered range of 250, for example, does not mean your bullets fall into a void and disappear after 250 range. The importance of this is that with homing weapons, you need an initial lock-on before you can utilize this homing. Thus, putting a weapon with a long range first, and using that for the initial lock-on, allows you to maximize the use of your homing.

2. Long Range: +15% Range and +25% Speed is always a nice thing to have. Hit harder and more consistently. Self-Explanatory. Wardus HD2 for 70 cost allows you 5 on-hand uses, and be on the lookout for friendly Victory Is, FBs, and Victorls, who have internal Mini Long Range Bits. Also, with the recent Lumeria buff, friendly Lumeria shields will provide both cover and Long Range.

3. Mobility BSes: Can help you get out of situations. Make this one of the lowest priorities because usually you won't have the capacity for this.

4. Clearance/Crimson Veil: No downsides to having these. However, like mobility BSes, should be the last thing on your mind considering you’re going to need your capacity.

Good, now you understand some of the stranger mechanics of alpha-striking. Now I’ll go over another crucial aspect of alpha-striking, tune choices.

Tuning: Now, many things have changed for alpha-strikers since 2012 and earlier times. Back then, barrier and beam cancellers, Burst Missile AMJs, Ragna Barrets, Sturbanger BS2s, Ogreil AMs, etc. did not exist. The mindset back then was to deal as much damage as possible before you inevitable destruction. However, times have changed. Meanwhile, many of your worst enemies, the melees, retain the same mindset of ‘Fat Artillery = Slow Artillery = Free Kill”. This is where you prove them wrong.
The basic tuning priorities here, generally, FLY > Performance/Weapon Tunes > TEC. Of course HP is semi-important, but as long as you are careful, a tad over 400 should be enough. Of course, EX Tunes exist as well, but that’s a story for another time.

I am going to tell you now that although 38 fly is by no means mandatory, it is highly recommended and with good reason. Many may disagree with me here but before you get suckered into making unwise sacrifices to eke out 40 TEC because someone decided to preach to you about maximum damage output, I want you to listen up. One, melees these days often have ways to cover distances extremely quickly. Examples include Ouka BF’s Raisen, Ivis Reine and BF’s Lance lunging attacks, and Mikoto’s Warp Step. Even the recently introduced Corona has extremely pesky dashes with melt effects that will fuck you up if you get hit. Of course with things newer things like Corona melee players are so fucking stupid that they need to have built in status effects on their melees because the shitlords are so bad these days that they are incapable of tuning slow or shell drain themselves even. Combo that with Assault Step, and melees can cover forward distance extremely quickly, and will potentially be in your face before you know it. With 38 FLY Float Dash, for instance, will assist in getting out of range of these attacks. Since melee mindset for the general playerbase seems to have not changed, as many of them associate alpha artillery with fat, slow masses of free kills and free score, you want that high mobility to exploit said mindset and the near assured overconfidence in their melee range and Assault Step. Melees will usually be the bane of your existence, along with few specific airs such as Air Eve, Monica Gold Wing, and Mialy A, due to their long range nature. If you are playing Long Range homing alpha-artillery however, they will be less of an issue.

With regards to tunes, here’s what goes down.

1. High Boost Beta: Prime tune to increase your fly stat. Self-Explanatory.

2. Great Rapid Beta/Alpha tunes: Increase your consistency of landing bursts by having at least one fast, hard hitting weapon landing first to stun so the rest of the burst connects. The tradeoff is lower damage due to the nature of stun and invulnerability frames, but trust me, you will still deal ridiculous amounts of damage.

3. Vanilla Force tunes: If you have spare capacity, a little extra damage output never hurts.

4. High Tech Beta: If you have the slots and WLK stat to countertune with High Boost Betas, tuning a High Boost Beta and two of these will net you +4 TEC at 15 cost and 3 slots against 2 slots and 20 Cost for 2 High Tech Alphas. On capacity tight alpha-strikers, this can be very useful.

5. Tech tunes: Single 5 cost +1 TEC tunes are nice for 100% success rates and low cost in mats.

6. High Tech Alpha tunes: Similar to Tech tunes, no benefit other than lower slot usage.

----

OK, after all this stuff, what’s left off the top of my head to talk about are things to be vary of. Let me list here some things to keep in mind, avoid, and be careful around.
1. Melees -  Self-explanatory

2. Rinka Lynx – On specific maps, there will be these queers that have nothing better to do with their time than sit at the back of the map taking potshots at you. Keep mobile to make it harder for them to hit you as if you are homing based Long Range disorder is a bitch to deal with, even if only for a second or two, especially if you are actively engaged in combat.

3. Ragna Barrets, Nemlim Mellows and Stellas – All these fucking queers will inflict charge delay on you, which is also a pain in the ass to deal with while alpha-striking. Facing off with Ragna Barrets when you have Beam Cancellers or Rouche AMs will usually just be a Mexican Standoff. Mellows will get shredded pretty tough if you land the first hit on them. Stellas will also melt, but the fact she is an air and has the 10 seconds of airtime means you need to be vary, making sure to always be the one that lands the first hit.

4. Resha: Vox Resha’s jam your bullets and you can’t shoot. Keep firing on these to pop their shields and block out Meluc shots.

5. Alcy: For some strange reason Shot Alcy’s bullets like to be counted as entities and block out damage if they come into contact before they spread. Do not be surprised if hits connect and she takes no damage. Also they are pesky little shits that make your screen all flashy and shit when they buff off of you.

6. “Friendly” Teammates: Many a stupid teammate will get you killed or hamper your performance, usually in the form of bumping into you while you are positioning or traveling, standing in front of your bursts, and panicking and dropping fire pillars and wind tunnels. Be vary of stupid teammates. Sometimes they are more dangerous than the enemies.

7. Enemy Lumerias: These fuckers have huge barriers and give long range to themselves and enemies. The sub will hit hard and inflict booster trouble, making mobility more difficult and Long Range buffed enemies are no joke.

8. Persenachia, Nicole, etc. : They cause Waste Booster and that shit is fucking stupid because it pretty much acts as pseudo dash-restrict if your boost gauge was already used some. If you can’t reposition your best bet is to continue firing in the hopes they fuck off.

9. Anything that inflicts – Booster Trouble – Waste Booster – Charge Delay – Bad Homing – Disorder: These are not things you want to be stuck with while alpha-striking.

Non Robot Related things:
1. Hypershot, Burst Fire Bits, Revenge Hypershot, and Powerspots: Contrary to popular belief and first instincts, you want to avoid these, or keep them more as last resorts. The fact that, short of Fluene, replenishing ammunition is impractical if not impossible, the damage drop-off for consecutive bursts is even sharper with hypershot on due to faster TGH reduction and more invulnerability stun frames makes this pretty much nothing but a last resort.

2. Stream-firing: Though sitting in one place and holding down M1 and M2 all day seems natural for alpha-striking, damage drop-off due to TGH reduction makes each consecutive burst less effective. For maximum damage output on limited ammo, as again refilling is near impossible, you want to be damage efficient. Conservative alpha-striking keeps the average damage per burst higher, keeps you more mobile, and makes sure you have ammunition to last longer. If you plan on dying before the match ends to respawn, this is less of an issue. Therefore conservative bursts will fare better than sustained stream-firing.

3. Environmental Entities: Use liberally. Take cover behind rocks, buildings, and hills. Use wind-pillars to gain altitude and meet airs at their level. Use rocks and hills to gain altitude on melees and airs. But beware of potential obstacles that may hinder escape.

---

Popular Selections: This section will go over some of the most popular part and core selections. Parts are focused on the idea they have built in weapons.

Cores/BD:

Top Tier Choices:
-Ragna Barret BD:
--Pros: Extremely potent core weapon, built in backdash for evasion.

--Cons: Compared to things such as Grand Dugdriver BD and Albatreos BD, poor beginning stats. Core itself has just 9 FLY 9 WLK 13 TEC. Also, unlike Albatreos and Grand Dugdriver, capacity pool, especially for Level 10 builds, is extremely poor. Core Weapon needs at least 1 Enhance Internal to maintain sustained combat, due to low ammunition count. Even with all Capacity carts, base HP is also poor, especially for an L Sized core. Has the potential to be extremely powerful, but requires a lot of time invested.

-Albatreos BD:
--Pros: Strong core weapon, both main and sub. Naturally high capacity. Good Core stats. Good base HP.

--Cons: Extremely noticeable. Wide. That's pretty much it. It's pretty damn good. A great choice for your rough and tumble alpha-striker. Also available in shop, and 2s will not matter as you will likely be removing most of the stock parts.

-Grand Dugdriver BD:
--Pros: Extremely good capacity base. Wide variety of cartridges. Only artillery to get quick jump, quick land, short boost. Medium size allows you the widest access to part selection. No internal weapon means 2 extra carts towards other things.

--Cons: No internal weapon. If you're OK with having no core weapon, that works great. Core is also extremely potent for single weapon artillery builds. May want to consider its usage carefully.

Arms/AMs:

Top Tier Choices:

-Rouche AM:
--Pros: Extremely potent at blocking bullets at close range. Sting, fast firerate.

--Cons: 90 cost is a bit on the high side, 140 ammunition may not last very long. S sized means L sized cores have no access to this.

-Ragna Barret AM:
--Pros: 60 cost, M sized means universal accessibility, beam cancellers will explode when in proximity to block bullets.

--Cons: ???

-Dugdriver AM/Grand Dugdriver AM:
--Pros: Good shooting arcs that help hit high altitude airs, shell damage to challenge blast guard lands, homing is impressive, backup farming melee built in. Grand Dugdriver AMs are a higher force, lower ammunition option for 5 more cost. Tuneable for higher performance or force.

--Cons: No handheld slots. 14-16 force relatively low.

-Ogreil AMs:
--Pros: Double weapons, one high speed, one homing, good synergy.

--Cons: Cooldown post-burst, all weapons have low, single digit force, 135 cost is a bit high. Also, no handheld slots.

Arm Joints/AMJs:

Top Tier Choices:

-Burst Missile AMJs:
--Pros: Long range, Homing, extreme damage, spreads with AoE.

--Cons: Inflates cost, 50 net Cost not necessarily cheap.

-Sturbanger AMJs
--Pros: Low cost double beam cancellers (perfectly acceptable supplement in place of Ragna Barret AMJs)

--Cons: L size means S sized artilleries do not get access to them.

Boosters/BSes

Top Tier Choices:

-Dagomure BS:
--Pros: Dual blast bazookas. Good for hitting things at sharp incline. Doesn't mess around.

--Cons: For a BS slot, FLY stats aren't exactly impressive. 100 Cost will mean you have to determine if you can fit this.

-Sturbanger BS2:
--Pros: Homing missiles. Causes Booster trouble upon impact. Fires at wide angles allowing for some circumventing of beam cancellers.

--Cons: Again, 100 cost, will need to check your capacity limits.

-Hygerkun BS:
--Pros: Erratic howitzer that fires upwards then returns down at high speed. Causes booster trouble. Extremely potent weapon. 300 Range/Speed allows for very fast bullet travel. Also contains a bonus lock-on subweapon. M sized means full accessibility across all sizes.

--Cons: Fat. 135 cost is no joke.

Head/HDs: (Actual alphastriking heads aren't exactly very common, but some make good supplements.)

-Wardus HD2:
--Pros: 5 uses of Long Range on demand.

--Cons: A bit more costly due to buff.

-Psycho Formula HDs (Weaponized minus ROAR variant)
--Pros: Good for overranging, can be tuned for further range.

--Cons: Also not exactly low cost. Will not serve much purpose in close range alpha-strikers.


----
For non-weaponized options, there are a large variety, so if those float your boat, feel free to check those out too.

Hope this helps you in understanding alpha-artillery. Enjoy, and don't hesitate to shred people to bits.


Last edited by Axanael on Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:58 pm; edited 7 times in total
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reVelske
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PostSubject: Re: Alpha-Artillery Guide   Alpha-Artillery Guide EmptyMon Mar 31, 2014 2:55 am

Barrier non-sense AMs should not be put into a category of its own. In general, the category should be separated based on range. Burst Missile AMJ/Dug/Grand Dug/anything that can overrange that works well in conjunction with PFHD2/3 are long range, everything else (specifically bazookas) are short range. barrier bullshit are far more ideal for close range alpha for obvious reasons, whereas non-barrier close range alphas are actually very dangerous to play nowadays and require very good awareness and high mobility.

And quick land is never needed on alpha art.
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PostSubject: Re: Alpha-Artillery Guide   Alpha-Artillery Guide EmptyMon Mar 31, 2014 2:59 am

Don't forget to mention about overranging alphas with Psycho Formula HD2/3 (most use HD2 since more ammo and less costly)

Ogriel AM

Maybe Victorl AM3.

edit: ninja'd
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PostSubject: Re: Alpha-Artillery Guide   Alpha-Artillery Guide EmptyMon Mar 31, 2014 3:28 am

as stated, quick jump is waaaay better than quick land for alpha builds.

there's no mention of wardus HD2(extremely good on missile-based alpha builds)

it's always an option to NOT USE handhelds. On most ragna+illumis amj builds, it's simply not needed - you won't actually be getting much damage out of them. Better to save cost by going with 10cost1stat items, handy magnum mods, or simply not putting any on at all since you don't need them.

In general, I believe alpha artillery construction should be based on damage then various utility roles.
Here's an example:
Today I took the roar arms off my grand dug and slapped on orgiel AM+sturb AMJ. For this, the damage comes from the arms and the amjs are there for utility.

For a the "standard ragna", you'd be looking at:
Damage: illumis AMJ
Utility - defense: Ragna AM
Utility - deterrent: Ragna BD@

The old-school all-missiles alba:
Damage: Dug/gathima AM
Utility - overrange: Psycho formula HD2/3
Utility - more damage: Alba BD

Generally core weapons fall into utility since on alpha builds you aren't going to be grabbing EIW carts due to the cost of all the weapons you have. Sometimes you'd sneak in 1 eiw if you have the space but usually you'd just ignore them.
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PostSubject: Re: Alpha-Artillery Guide   Alpha-Artillery Guide EmptyMon Mar 31, 2014 6:13 am

I always max out EIW on Alba Laza even as an Alpha. Sure I can't get enough WPs to fit into my build but the damage output of it's BD WP is among my favorites.


Last edited by Samui on Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Alpha-Artillery Guide   Alpha-Artillery Guide EmptyMon Mar 31, 2014 6:18 am

Alba's EIW is too good to say no to, same with Muchi. Though whereas Muchi can still get every cart he needs even wth 2x EIW, Alba needs to sacrifice a few carts here and there for EIW (specifically, Beam Guard and Broad Radar), still worth it though I say.
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PostSubject: Re: Alpha-Artillery Guide   Alpha-Artillery Guide EmptyMon Mar 31, 2014 6:42 am

Should mention Chloe with Roar AMJ as well. And Hygerkun BS can be used to disable cooldown of weapons (and I think any BS weapon will do).

Also iirc, sturn AMJ has slightly charging, which is more noticeable when alphaing.
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PostSubject: Re: Alpha-Artillery Guide   Alpha-Artillery Guide EmptyMon Mar 31, 2014 7:51 am

It is an issue of capacity rather than an issue of cartridge choices. In an alpha build, you would generally only go as far as the level required for moving burst(level 9 usually), and not take a last cart. You would want to select the cartridges on the way there that give the most usability for the lowest cost, and 60cost for 2x EIW is simply not as effective as 35cost beam guard + blast guard, considering that these two are nearly half the cost of EIW, greatly increase survivability, and allow you to achieve greater damage across all weapons rather than funneling the cost into a single weapon.

Spoiler:
 

these are the parts(more or less) used by a certain player. They are highly expensive but provide a large amount of damage, but have certain drawbacks(mainly charge time on the HD, I would not use it myself but I am using these parts as an example)

these are the stats attainable while taking EIW, and pushing the core to it's limits with 3x gcapa LG.

Spoiler:
 

beam guard+blast guard allows for reaching maximum tech, and reaches a higher FLY break point.(this could be put into HP instead if the player desires but I feel mobility is more important.)

Since the majority of the damage(at range) will be coming from the AMJs, I do not feel that spending such cost on the core weapon at the expensive of the main damage weapon is worth it, when a setup that offers more offensive power will also off more defensive power and mobility.

This is why I say that EIWs are generally not taken on alpha builds except in very special cases.
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PostSubject: Re: Alpha-Artillery Guide   Alpha-Artillery Guide EmptyMon Mar 31, 2014 8:06 am

Eh, questionable builds. 3x Great Capa what.

If you gonna do AMJs, sure, don't bother with EIW, the damage from individual weapon becomes far less important than the entire setup as a whole (and I still question Alba HD, still feels like a hindrance and waste of cost than anything else despite what people would like to think from certain individual's performance). If you are going for something without AMJ and hence less overall weapons, EIW is fine.

An example, the Alpha Alba i used to play quite often had only Dug AM and core for damage (PFHD2's damage is negligible, and a Blast Baz Mod is only for cockblocking Seraphs during Seraph meta, as in, original Seraph meta, not even FC), and in that instance, the EIW makes a huge difference.

For Muchi, if I was held at gunpoint to make something with Rouche AM, I'd have went just with Handy Baz and core for damage, in which case, EIW would be extremely useful. In terms of AMJ for alpha Muchi/ama, I'd actually prefer Comet Launcher since it's a far more ideal mid ranage weapon, but cost is meh.
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PostSubject: Re: Alpha-Artillery Guide   Alpha-Artillery Guide EmptyMon Mar 31, 2014 9:09 am

Really that's a difference between schools of thought between eras. Back in 2011 and those times we didn't have strong AMJ weapons for artillery so when you arms were busy being defensive, the core was where your extra cost went.

after illumis amjs came out, that was the main source of damage so you sacrificed the core to make those better.

With sturb AMJs existing now, you can put defensive weapons there and have your damage weapons in the arms, or vice versa, depending on what you have access to and what you want to do with your build.

In general, 2 strong AM/AMJ weapons plus 0-EIW core will outperform just a 2xEIW core, and that's the basic logic behind making alpha builds in the first place.


Again, it's a process of figuring out where your damage is coming from and making sure you're getting the most out of that and not wasting capacity on other things. If the core is the main source of damage, then take the things to make it better. If it's not your main source of damage, then don't.
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PostSubject: Re: Alpha-Artillery Guide   Alpha-Artillery Guide EmptyMon Mar 31, 2014 9:15 am

Considering these AMJs aren't readily available and old long range alpha builds are still very much viable (and now with every part required of it readily available), I don't believe the EIW-focused alpha builds are by any means redundant or unworthy of mention. And to say that AMJ builds will definitively outperform EIW builds is a bit of a stretch IMHO, less is more, at times.
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PostSubject: Re: Alpha-Artillery Guide   Alpha-Artillery Guide EmptyMon Mar 31, 2014 9:43 am

looking at a difference of 5 tech between EIW build and non EIW build, we have 35 tec and 40 tec, which results in 1 extra (raw) damage on the amjs, multiplied by 6(3 missiles each.) versus 6 extra damage on the core weapon...which means that just looking at AMJ and core, the raw damage output is exactly the same at 154 either way. However, the 40 tech, 0 EIW build will get more damage on it's other weapons, in addition to having double guard carts to add to more survivability.

If your main source of damage is from AMJs, why are you using your cost to make the core better when you could make the build as a whole better?
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PostSubject: Re: Alpha-Artillery Guide   Alpha-Artillery Guide EmptyMon Mar 31, 2014 10:04 am

Are you actually using the two builds you've pasted as example? Because I can't even bear to consider them in any serious light, being a pair of highly unrealistic builds. But regardless, once TGH kicks in, which it undoubtedly will, the difference becomes marginal. I'm TRYING to just get with it and debate using your examples but AMJ on Ama just seems far too counter-intuitive for me to consider. Here's a better example over all: Burst Missile Dug Alba vs Dug Alba, you'll like have about 10 TEC different if you don't drop PFHD2 range tunes or BR+Beam Guard. The overall DPS difference should be marginal, whereas EIW build allows for a more agressive playstyle albeit slightly vulnerable, the AMJ build is far more ideal for a defensive playstyle.

Point is, the damage difference is never all that significant, it's always a matter of everything else. Most alpha builds - unless met with an untimely death at the hand of some herp derp melee - will hit 2k-3k damage give or take. Despite my old alpha alba build only really utilizes a single dug AM and core for main damage dealing, he still easily out does the other all-out dual dug/dual burst alba builds in terms of damage.

Admittedly these are no "solid" proof, but getting solid overall damage output comparison for alpha is nigh on impossible, I'm simply speaking from experience. During the time I was playing my Alba, I've often played along side Etherlight's Alba, its build was always changing and differed from mine quite a bit, yet there's been no definitive damage difference between us overall.
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PostSubject: Re: Alpha-Artillery Guide   Alpha-Artillery Guide EmptyMon Mar 31, 2014 10:29 am

no, I'm not using the previous build.
Spoiler:
 

Quote :
Here's a better example over all: Burst Missile Dug Alba vs Dug Alba, you'll like have about 10 TEC different if you don't drop PFHD2 range tunes or BR+Beam Guard. The overall DPS difference should be marginal

Did you just say that a build with amjs will only be marginally more than a build that lacks them entirely?

here's an alba

Spoiler:
 

and here's an alba with the same parts, but with things taken away to make room for EIW carts
Spoiler:
 

In the process of getting EIW to be better, we:
1. dropped down a fly tier
2. lost 2 tec(not that big)
3. removed a grange tune in the HD(pretty big on an overrange build)
4. lost beam guard(not that big)

I really don't see how this is an improvement, or even something that can be considered "only marginally better."


Here's a build without AMJs at all, using EIW and the weapons you mention.
Spoiler:
 

we get a lot of space by dropping AMJs, and you can really see how much they take up. However, you also lose quite a bit of damage. Here you have a highly mobile build with more range and radar to play more aggressively, at a cost of a LARGE amount of damage(the 132 raw damage amjs)

This does something completely different, but in the current meta of raw damage races, I do not feel it compares with either of the previous builds in term of raw effectiveness in the current meta.
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PostSubject: Re: Alpha-Artillery Guide   Alpha-Artillery Guide EmptyMon Mar 31, 2014 11:09 am

Raw damage race or not, you are still going to hover around 3k damage on a good day, whereas a AMJ-less build will hover around the same. Again, I'm talking based on experience rather than raw data. Sure, I have no solid explanation to WHY this is the case, but TGH being the most likely answer: Both kinds of alpha will hit that TGH damage reduction cap very quickly, ie. they will both manage to reach that massive damage and start hitting for little to nothing. Hence, the burst damage difference will actually be marginal.

Here are two builds I'd actually compare with. (Go home with your terrible Albas, go home and be a family Resha)

http://butr.me/ou

http://butr.me/ov Yeah I didn't even finish this up since ALL THESE CAP. You could get a CV, you could drop a cap to drop the cost, you could force tune your Dugs, you could get more FLY, you could get even more range on PFHD2, the possibilities!

I get what you are saying with "LOOK AT THESE RETARDED AMJS, HOW COULD YOU SAY THAT THEIR DAMAGE CONTRIBUTIONS ARE MARGINAL", but, being someone who played an alpha alba for the longest times, debatably the most prominent alpha alba player on CBEN (blowing my own trumpet like a real man), I simply have to disagree from experience. Unless you can show me a AMJ Alba hitting for 4k+ consistently, I'm simply going to have to disagree with you on that one.
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PostSubject: Re: Alpha-Artillery Guide   Alpha-Artillery Guide EmptyMon Mar 31, 2014 12:40 pm

Preda is a nice core for alpha, though the core weapon without EIW has a rather meh range, which is one of the things that make Ragna such braindead art to build.
Preda is also a good core to make full use of Stur BS2.

lel at Alpha Chloe. Her core can barely hold her weapon with tunes. The AMJ you put on her will do just as good on Hoverion.

Nova is a nice core for short burst, but when it comes to sit and hold both buttons until the alpha reaches the end, it's not as good.
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PostSubject: Re: Alpha-Artillery Guide   Alpha-Artillery Guide EmptyMon Mar 31, 2014 1:18 pm

@Axanael wrote:
These are both Barrier Arms
Wrong. Beam Cancellers block projectiles, but not like Rouche barriers.
They behave similarly to Anti-Air Missiles. So when they come in contact with an enemy projectile, both projectiles are destroyed.
The blue field it creates is the beam cancelling field, and it's not what is destroying every projectile ever.
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PostSubject: Re: Alpha-Artillery Guide   Alpha-Artillery Guide EmptyMon Mar 31, 2014 6:21 pm

Would Sniper Sight be good for this sort of thing, so that I can pound him with Explosives without them even noticing it coming?
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PostSubject: Re: Alpha-Artillery Guide   Alpha-Artillery Guide EmptyMon Mar 31, 2014 6:27 pm

@God is a Cat Girl wrote:
Preda is a nice core for alpha.

Yeah but the sub kinda gets in the way.
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PostSubject: Re: Alpha-Artillery Guide   Alpha-Artillery Guide EmptyMon Mar 31, 2014 6:27 pm

>Implying that anyone can miss a sky-blocking storm of projectiles
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PostSubject: Re: Alpha-Artillery Guide   Alpha-Artillery Guide EmptyMon Mar 31, 2014 6:31 pm

I just was wondering, because it would be one of those "They'll never know what hit them" type things.

So, would Sniper Sight be good for this or not? Or should I just stick with Float Dash? I want to know for an Alpha-Striking Albatreos that I've been working on.
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PostSubject: Re: Alpha-Artillery Guide   Alpha-Artillery Guide EmptyMon Mar 31, 2014 6:32 pm

@StickyKeys wrote:
@God is a Cat Girl wrote:
Preda is a nice core for alpha.

Yeah but the sub kinda gets in the way.

That doesn't make Ragna any worse.
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PostSubject: Re: Alpha-Artillery Guide   Alpha-Artillery Guide EmptyMon Mar 31, 2014 7:23 pm

It can work, in theory, if you're going to be overranging. But you're going to be located after your initial burst. I would try it and give feedback, but alpha arts are for losers. Excluding amateus with greinaut arms, though. Shit is legit.
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PostSubject: Re: Alpha-Artillery Guide   Alpha-Artillery Guide EmptyMon Mar 31, 2014 7:53 pm

I put Handy Baz on my ragna since no back unit, b/c I don't have hygerkun, sturb Bs, or og Dagomure. Plus looking scary and being up in rusher's faces works for me. Again, actual effectiveness is questionable.

I'll update later today about different ranges, homing v dumbfire, and supplement weapons and parts too.
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PostSubject: Re: Alpha-Artillery Guide   Alpha-Artillery Guide EmptyTue Apr 01, 2014 11:56 pm

Updated with further details and information.
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