[General] Weakness Analyses

If you want a general guide, then just read this post. If you want to read in detail, then use the search option for the thread.

Both physical and mental aspects of the player can also be mentioned, like how someone chooses to stay far away from their teammates is a mental thing, and stats being a physical thing.

Oh and uh, please, please, don't make a big huge paragraph.
Separate it into sentences, so it can be read easier. Like me.



I'll start with Malice.
When she has her Deadeye bit out, she can hardly fly to save her life. 1 second of flying isn't good.
The player would probably focus on staying close to let Deadeye hit them.

Have a Melee bot come at them, preferably a land without boost run. Even if the opposing Malice has sword guard, it won't do much if she's trapped with a melee'er.

I have a Malice of my own.

Why is melee effective? Deadeye reduces flying to 1 second. I sometimes even find myself to stay in the frontline to let the bit hit things, and any melee hit would probably stun me.

If the Malice has high walk, get them from the side or back to surprise them, as long if noone has targetted you.

Some things I observed >.>

Vs. a Fencer THAT HASN'T HIT YOU YET!!!!!!

General Countermeasures:
-use allies as meatshields
-Run away
-If their first slash doesn't reach you (meaning the sword is out of range), use that to move away from the next slash, and proceed to shoot it, or run away
-use rapid firing weapons

TYPE-specific countermeasures:
AIRS:
-Fly above them, making sure that their sword is out of reach, and use your beam weapon. Keep an eye on your boost gauge so that you can find high ground to land on when it's almost depleted. If the fencer is trying to reach you, just fly higher >.>

ARTS:
-If you think you have enough weapons to down a fencer, shoot it while it's out of slashing range
-Always stay on high ground, near your allies.

LNDS:
-If you're pure melee, don't fight them, unless you're confident that you'll win. If not, run to your allies
-If you're a hopper/swayer gunner, just shoot it, but make sure you're out of slashing range.

SUP:
don't have anything right now

I'll address the relevant stuff first. If anything else comes up later, I'll make a different post for it.

Quote :

EVE

1v1, you can't win. Unless the EVE player is mentally deficient, float dash can keep you out of range forever while she blasts your face off from across the map. And if you do somehow find yourself in a position to catch her, her BS shield will still make a point of ruining your day.

Of course, flukes happen, very few EN EVEs even know how to play her correctly, and there are some tools you can use effectively to deal with an EVE.

Sway: EVE Shot attack intervals are extremely predictable, to the point where you should be able to sway around (or through) them even in relatively close ranges. Since most melee bots have Sway, you can still catch up to a cornered or non-retreating EVE and bash her face in.

Misty Hollow: With the exception of that one bored guy, nobody runs melee on their EVE. Mist up and troll the shit out of her. Even with her self-buff, you can fit in a mist between EVE shots.

Amateus and Nicole: Bad Booster cripples EVE's float dash trolling, rendering her considerably less mobile and much easier to catch.

Ambush: Should be obvious, if she doesn't see you coming she can't do anything about you.

Quote :

Ouka

Best counter here is the spacebar. Anything with Quick Jump shouldn't even be touchable by Ouka (mostly because I haven't seen a single EN Ouka with short boost + quick jump to catch airborne bots). As long as you don't stand on the ground in front of her there's no reason to lose.

Quote :

Malice

Without her bit, you're looking at a target functioning somewhat like EVE. She won't hit hard, but she can float dash spam at 300 range while eating your wonder bit and boost gauges. With her bit, she'll become rather immobile unless she's heavily wlk tuned, and is absolute food for melee. As a general rule of thumb, don't try to hop or boost run against a Malice. As soon as your booster derps, you're going to derp. Airs should probably steer clear too; bad booster and 43-force shadow missiles from the bit are not something you want to deal with. If you haven't noticed the pattern yet, I'll spell it out: Without her bit, she's a small speedy brat that specializes in harassment. With her bit, she's basically a fat art.

Quote :

Vanguard Fencer

As long as you're faster than him, you win.

As long as you can fly, you win.

As long as your weapon has more range than his, you win.

If you have Bugsy AM2, you win.

If you can hit him hard enough to stun him, you win. (addendum: If you have a beam weapon, you win.)

Quote :

Hoppers

Aim where they're going to land, not at them while they're in the air. Auto-aim fucks this up for some weapons, so it may not always be applicable. Slow and Bad Booster both ruin a hopper's day. Speedy weapons like beam machinegun and lasers, or weapons with large AoE like Stardust Cannon will usually defeat a hopper's advantage.

vs EVE: It really depends on who's playing her, like Suguri mentioned. The main things to keep in mind when playing against her are her speed (float dash sux), her railgun and her damn shield. Don't take on her when she has her shield on and speeding around like a mad woman, there's no way you'll hit her and you'll eat 120 damage repeatedly.

vs Ouka: As an AIR, you'll have an easy time against her, but if you're not... you'll really want to be in the air when you see her. One hit from her sword and it's almost instant death as she can stunlock you permenantly unless you have a good amount of TGH. Kite her and keep airborne and/or on higher ground at all times.

vs Vengurd: Similar to Ouka, except you have to keep AWAY from him in addition to keeping in the air because of his sword's long reach and the upwards swing on the second hit of his sword combo. Good Vanguards can work around this, but there's nothing stopping you from taking advantage of his biggest weakness; he's a sitting duck outside of his melee range.

vs Hoppers: The time when they will be 'vulnerable' is when they land, or you can use weapons with a high rate of fire against them; Auto Beam Rifles, Raid Rifles, Garula AMs, etc, all work very well against them.

vs Laggers: help

Also a note regarding Ouka: Sword Guard and/or 20ish tgh greatly alleviates both damage and stun. I've escaped Ouka stunlocks with a 22 tgh destructor girl before.

Hmm, lessee...

Counter-EVE: Aside from what's been said so far [ambush, mob, etc.], you can close the distance if you find the EVE player being inaccurate in his/her shots - I was able to dodge my former clanleader's by just a hair, oddly enough. Fly up and over after railgun recoil and AIR melee to the head, which is also unprotected by the BS shield. Also I wonder what an Accuracy Debuff does....

Counter-Fencer: As someone told me once, once a Fencer starts slashing in raeg mode, it can't stop. Dunno if this is true or not, but I've simply parked on the ground and alpha struck Fencers to death with beam spam, long as they're focused on another target besides you. Slow/Bind would also help take this guy down.

Counter-Ouka: Same as Fencer, do NOT land when one has you in its sights, even if you're an AIR. Proceed to hang in the AIR and spam beams, as Ouka's combo requires being on the ground for it to work. Beware of sword slashes though.

And for something I thought you'd have put here...

Counter-Frau: If you happen to get caught in her kick combo, just pray your buddies are there to back you up. Chances are she's got Slow Tunes on the legs, so that pushes out quite a bit of Capacity and results in somewhat low health [although not as notoriously low as Crimrose] - this is your cue to spam explosives in her general direction once she's locked on to a target.

Glass wrote:

EVE

Hatigarm Machine.

(I'll edit this post whenever new op bots come out =P)
From personal usage of these bots I think:

Vs EVE:
Don't 1 vs 1 unless you know can do it. Basically the biggest problem Eve faces is that she has to charge each shot. Most players charge it to the 2nd level and some even the 3rd level. The 1st level shot is rarely used (unless hypershot is active). So using a unit that "teleports" such as Jikuns or Red Squealer's core can help.

Next, you can gang up on her (this i see a lot ._.). But Ambushing mostly does not work. Most Eves would have installed the broad radar cartridge. Unless the player is bad, they will see you coming.

Also, you can use Air types. IMO, Airs are one of the only things that can 1 vs 1 Eve. If you have a high landing spot, repeatedly fly overhead and shoot her. If you are a Seraph, activate the wings and keep on staying on top of her. Remember, no 120dmg shots come out if she can't charge. (However, watch out for the much overlooked psygun at this point)

Mentally, most Eve players like to stand slightly behind the front line and snipe at enemies or go off picking lone units that pop on the broad radar. Remember, most Eves can always see you, thus stay in a group at all times. Some more confident Eves though can be found right in front with the buff up and shield up. At this point she is like a glass cannon. She can kill lots but incur a lot of damage or even die at this time. Good players will not die and retreat when the hp turns yellow.

Physically, the untuned Eve is relatively easy to kill. The tuned ones however are a different story. Most Eve sport the 40 Tec which allows them to have damage beyond 100 at 3rd charge. This damage is further increased by the usage of Great Force Tunes on the cannon. Most Eves however are satisfied with the damage from 40 Tec that the 3 slots on the weapon is used for Shooters or High Shooters -- this coupled with the usage of Sniper Sight on Eve allow her to kill anything unsuspectingly. Therefore, if you are running from an Eve, don't stop unless you can't see her, you don't know if you are still in her sights.

Next, most Eve have a 30+ Fly value, some even having 40 Fly. This coupled with Float Dash allow her to escape and evade attacks with ease. However, some Eves are careless and will float dash into walls -- at this point run in and kill her, make sure she cannot get away.

Vs Ouka:
IMO, Ouka's not that op. She'e basically a land with high melee dps and quite good speed. Basically shoot her from afar or cut her from behind/when she's cutting someone else.

Physically, the way Ouka is tuned varies from the player to player. Some like the walk high, some like the str high, and i've even met a player with a 40 tough Ouka. On the sword, most players have slow tune to prevent the target from escaping. Others sometimes use Grapplers to increase the damage of each hit.

Mentally, most Ouka players tend to sneak in with their dual slayer bits active. Some from the back of maps like Grounder, some like to come in from the sides. So yeah, watch out for your surroundings. If they have the stealth cart upgrade, then there is nothing you can do except attempt to wb dodge or that someone sees her and kills her.

Vs Fencer:
Shoot it from afar and it can't do anything to you. When healing in a group, have people look in different direction so that you can spot if a Fencer is sneaking in. It's combo lasts about 5 hits. You can use WB dodge and get of reach once the combo ends if you time it right and your bot has float dash / boost run. Also, VF is near useless without his buff.

Physically, most Fencers have that 40 STR since it is not hard at all to make his STR close to 40 without tuning. The Tough is then made 20 and the rest is invested in walk since he is really slow even with boost run. The sword is tuned similarly to Ouka, either Slows or Grapplers.

Mentally, most Fencers adpot the Ouka strategy and sneak in for kills. Also, some players make their Fencers small and dark colored so on maps with alot of tress around, it can hide and evade hits easily.

Vs Frau:
I wonder why it got stuck in player's head that Frau was OP. After discussion with some clan members, we have admitted that Frau actually is not as hyped as she is. Her AMs are usually scrapped for Alpha Burst Raiders and the legs are put on any offensive Air Bot.

Physically, Frau would have the mandatory 40 fly and about 20 tec. The legs will have 2x slow tune, I have never seen any other tunes on it. She might have the Air Loop Cart so beware. There are basically 2 main ways players play Frau.
1) Twin Sheild -> this tactics is basically suicide since after the shelds break you have nothing left, on the plus side, you get to do more damage before retreating.
2) Normal Air -> Zooka + ABR, the legs are only used when there is the chance to.

Mentally, bad Frau players use her as suicide, running into ps loaded heal groups in attempt to kill as many as possible. Most of the time, the Frau dies.
Better players get a real weapon on her instead just the ams and play as a real air, not some flying melee suicider.

Vs Malice:
Nothing OP about her. Kill her like any other support. Sure the debuff is irritating, but she cannot do anything alone. Hence surround and kill / isolate and kill, but only if you know that you can be as fast / faster than her.

Vs Hopper:
Aim at where they land. Or if you have a fast enough bot, melee stun lock it. Aoe works the best though.
Another way is to so called "hop with them" - when they hop u fly, when they land, you shoot.


Vs Alpha Striker Airs:
This one is a bit irritating. Alphas are small little bots that pack a heck load of stun and damage. Until now, I've only seen the pros use them. So expect each alpha to come with air loop in them. They tend to sneak up on you and unload a heck load of damage.

Solution? Hope some one sees it before it kills you.

Vs Toybox Girl:
She's as vulnerable as any art, even with her sub core. Since it has to shoot the nearest thing, you can smartly lure the TBG into a wall, just by running towards her with a wall behind her.

Vs Aquila Girl:
Ah-chans have become a great nuisance, if there are 3+ Ah-chans on the opposing team around you, you are not getting out alive.
Solution? Bring a hard counter: Ama Muchi and Lily Rain Le Reve.
Muchi will make them lose a buff if they want to avoid the sub weapon and a MB Le Reve with good aim can knock one out of the air and kill it fast.

Divinity wrote:

Also, you can use Air types. IMO, Airs are one of the only things that can 1 vs 1 Eve. If you have a high landing spot, repeatedly fly overhead and shoot her. If you are a Seraph, activate the wings and keep on staying on top of her. Remember, no 120dmg shots come out if she can't charge. (However, watch out for the much overlooked psygun at this point)

Be very careful if you try to use an air against EVE, EVE Shot does deal blast damage (about 20%, I'd guess; it gets a large multiplier when charged to lv3 though).

To ensure a safe approach against an EVE, I'd recommend air loop on airs, sway on grounded bots, and Misty in general.

Suguri wrote:

Divinity wrote:

Also, you can use Air types. IMO, Airs are one of the only things that can 1 vs 1 Eve. If you have a high landing spot, repeatedly fly overhead and shoot her. If you are a Seraph, activate the wings and keep on staying on top of her. Remember, no 120dmg shots come out if she can't charge. (However, watch out for the much overlooked psygun at this point)

Be very careful if you try to use an air against EVE, EVE Shot does deal blast damage (about 20%, I'd guess; it gets a large multiplier when charged to lv3 though).

To ensure a safe approach against an EVE, I'd recommend air loop on airs, sway on grounded bots, and Misty in general.

Off: I got killed by Koi once this way on the Green Field map. ._.

On: Eve no like blast damage from zookas. <-- Important since Eve shield does not prevent splash damage from incurring.

Any little thing you notice can be posted here as well. Forgot to mention.

Anyone got guide vs Laggers?
Nowadays trend, anything can lag, not just jikun, I've seen squealers too, hell even hartigarm, but sometime I am able to use this as advantage though :/ see them warping in and you rush towards them and you will find them be behind you ignoring you and chasing other people, unless you are their only target...=.=

Most of time you see your attack animation hit on them and they flashing, but they took no damage, and next second later you find them behind you or chasing other people off.

Any good ways to get rid of them fast other then winberrl/greinut binding them? Cause no matter what it seems like empty whole ammo clip on them praying for some damage out while dodging still don't works very well and inefficient.

This type of build is just too annoying and just build too much time for their allies to raid =.=....Kind of foul

Against Vanguard and Eves without shields:

This is NOT a strategy to hit top 10! You will likely come out of this with a good chunk of HP missing unless you get REALLY lucky on the chaining. Even if you do, ART fire from the other enemies will probably be slamming into you if it's an Eve. The use of this is to get rid of that one player that's pinning down your team as fast as you can with minimal damage to yourself!

AIR unit with STOVL or Tengu BS and a melee wep can take their HP down fast if you are above them and have enough STR to flinch first hit. I personally use Crim AM2, from the proper angle, the second air combo tends to slide them across the ground JUST far enough for the edge of the first hit to connect in the next jump combo. It also has a nice turn-around for the second air hit, good chase ability, and you probably have tons of them if you rolled garapon.

Best situation to use this is when you're really high up and haven't been spotted yet (obviously). Just use the BS in midair to zip down behind them and melee them for a while. As soon as they start to recover and aim at you, just use the BS to switch sides quickly. The dropping out of the air from off their screen sets you up for the melee easily, and Crim AM2 goes past Eve's shield if jumped. It's probably because of it hitting the head, or that little aura on the blade.

Don't try and ambush an Eve player solo with this, Broad Radar shuts it down fast if there's not a group with you. If there is, the radar's lack of ability to show altitude can get you in there in time.

For Vanguard, you need a fast weapon more than reach, as it'll be decided on the first flinch. Just keep comboing if you get into a flinch chain.

Don't try this on Ouka unless she's near dead! The arm shield will absorb your melees and then you'll be in the perfect range for her attacks.

Quick Land is useful if you want to use the air part of your melee, and Float Dash lets you dash backwards then STOVL upwards to escape Eve's lockons. Just be prepared to GTFO at any time against Eve, as you probably did a lot more dmg than anyone else with just one combo if they play with shield up a lot. Don't block shots against Vanguard, focused fire is more lethal.

Seriously, this relies on getting the first hit and good situational awareness more than anything. KEEP YOUR RADAR UP!

Cori wrote:

Glass wrote:

EVE

Hatigarm Machine.

This thing with two K-shields, even though you can't spacebar jump with shields active, his core attack still makes him flip, , spin, charge and land unpredictably. Too unpredictably and fast for EVEE to keep crosshairs for a 3-charge shot at least.

priskern wrote:

Anyone got guide vs Laggers?
Nowadays trend, anything can lag, not just jikun, I've seen squealers too, hell even hartigarm
This type of build is just too annoying and just build too much time for their allies to raid =.=....Kind of foul

Erm, how the hell is lagging a build? Lag is just the result of crappy internet, or a crappy connection to the server. :/

Some people force lag and use setups that best take advantage of it. Double shielded Jikuns are an example.

eve shot is shell damage last I check. So are all the other rail guns.

Also, I find melee air hit-and-run to be most effective against eve. Pop in when unnoticed, do a few hit, run off (with a bit dodge if needed). Rinse repeat. Forcing the eve to be constantly on guard, reducing over all effectiveness. Don't need to hit and run if eve is low on hp. Naturally if your air is too slow, it won't help. Usually need around 30 fly.

Eve in a crowd though, near unstoppable.

It has a small Blast component, and it gets much bigger at 3 charge.

Vanguard:

I find if you time it right or the enemy palyer just isn't good..if you rush AT them you can dodge the first slash, making them overshoot. This lets you keep going while shooting them in the back. It's how i've killed three of them..with a chibi.

Hoppers:

Aim where they are going to land. at the right range, your shots should reach it right about when they do.

Eve:
DO NO APPROACH WITH LAND UNLESS YOU CAN GET TO HER WITHOUT GETTING SHOT! i swear that gun of hers is 80% beam, 20% somethign else. 120+ damage to my lands with blast guard, 80- to my arts with blast guard, but lacking the shield my jikun had.

Ouka
Byne with Kamui Staff
sorry, any long ranged fast moving beam weapon equiped bot shud be able to take her
any bot with Byne parts can also prevent stunlock. (ie. Narco's Shino Byne-Road)

Vanguard
Byne with Kamui Staff
I've done lots of 1 vs 1 and Byne still owns VF
Still, any long ranged fast moving beam weapon equiped bot is able to do well

Hopper
Byne with Kamui Staff
well, any melee shud do it
If u dun have melee, u can try flying directly on top of the hopper while firing. The hopper can't dodge a vertical attack easily. Burners are effective too and also Fire Pillar

EVE
So far, I've found Baron with 8 Vulvan extremely effective agains her. Putting urself on fire, u can just fly around her head while unloading that vulcan. Resulting in severely fregged EVE unless sum other bot gets in the way.
Hoppers are also effective against her as shown in Narco's tourney where Asukuu's hopper beat that EVE

Raal wrote:

Eve:
DO NO APPROACH WITH LAND UNLESS YOU CAN GET TO HER WITHOUT GETTING SHOT! i swear that gun of hers is 80% beam, 20% somethign else. 120+ damage to my lands with blast guard, 80- to my arts with blast guard, but lacking the shield my jikun had.

She does more damage to lands for some reason, I'm inclined to believe that this is the case, since she only does 70 damage to Kisrill on 40 TEC and fully leveled EVE from her mission.

EVE shot does not imply railgun.

Suguri wrote:

priskern wrote:

Anyone got guide vs Laggers?
Nowadays trend, anything can lag, not just jikun, I've seen squealers too, hell even hartigarm
This type of build is just too annoying and just build too much time for their allies to raid =.=....Kind of foul

Erm, how the hell is lagging a build? Lag is just the result of crappy internet, or a crappy connection to the server. :/

Nono, I am not asking for their builds or anything, I want counters, counters against them. Especially efficient ones! Not spamming weapons on them and praying for damage to pop up when 90% of your attack hits them yet nothing happens to them. And I do not want winberrls, greinuts or bugsycat which can't go to frontline combat either.

priskern wrote:

Suguri wrote:

priskern wrote:

Anyone got guide vs Laggers?
Nowadays trend, anything can lag, not just jikun, I've seen squealers too, hell even hartigarm
This type of build is just too annoying and just build too much time for their allies to raid =.=....Kind of foul

Erm, how the hell is lagging a build? Lag is just the result of crappy internet, or a crappy connection to the server. :/

Nono, I am not asking for their builds or anything, I want counters, counters against them. Especially efficient ones! Not spamming weapons on them and praying for damage to pop up when 90% of your attack hits them yet nothing happens to them. And I do not want winberrls, greinuts or bugsycat which can't go to frontline combat either.

Kick/votekick laggy players. I don't think there's a strategy against them cuz they just move from one place to another in lightspeed -_-

It's easier to hit them if they melee, as that fixes their position while they attack for most weapons. Melee that has lots of dashes and turns won't do anything much. In fact, it may make them HARDER to hit (goddamn Lagkuns). Meleeing them also works, as they'll be flinching. Tracking on certain melee is also helpful.

If you don't usually use melee, just bring the biggest gun you can use and use the AoE on them. Really fast weapons work well for tracking as well.

Iseal wrote:

It's easier to hit them if they melee, as that fixes their position while they attack for most weapons. Melee that has lots of dashes and turns won't do anything much. In fact, it may make them HARDER to hit (goddamn Lagkuns). Meleeing them also works, as they'll be flinching. Tracking on certain melee is also helpful.

If you don't usually use melee, just bring the biggest gun you can use and use the AoE on them. Really fast weapons work well for tracking as well.

Problem is, they build up so much time for their teammates by dragging everyone they see to target them and rush them, resulting in lesser frontline players from ourside and getting cream sooner or later.

Unless you got some imbal skill teammates whom rake score while staying alive, but that's another stories. Cause most of player will just see those lag rusher and tried to gang said person but fail to kill them. Sure I may just ignore them, but you never know when they be hitting your backs either. And since most people rushed off to chase that lagger, nobody's up for supporting in frontline which result in enemy zerg rush when the line fails to hold up by sheer difference in frontline players.