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 Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena)

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UncleBobbie
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IronFist
yilx
Aria
knyx
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FireKiller87
FenixStryk
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Hyoka
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ngelicdark
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ngelicdark
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PostSubject: Re: Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena)   Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena) - Page 2 EmptySun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm

It be an interesting read lol. That's all I wanted out of this thread.



To be honest though, depending on your low cost bot to do their job also relies on you doing your job well AKA being skilled. With 120 DPS per sec with a fat ass load, you might not be able to escape, but you probably would be able to find some idiot willing to run into your face so that you can blast them to pieces before you died. Depends of course.

And then if you have a 30 DPS mobile thing, you depend on every bullet you can count on to hit SOMETHING so that your damage can rack up; contribution via being targeted on, also helps your low dps output due to the scoring system. Which is why UC players are often better off doing hopper type builds because to outdps something is far beyond their reach.



All in all, I agree with what's being said, I'm just trying to point out issues in both. The former situation seems more reliable to rely on because you always have those glass cannon AIRs/LNDs rushing at you face first, being distracted by another meat shield so that you can kaboom something. The latter relies on you simply on being good.


Meaning, all in all, this really just separates the pros from the RT feeders. Now I'm afraid I'm in the latter pool AHAHAHAHAHHA



........................



-_-''''' *glooms in a corner*


Apart from all this, this makes me want to build my Laz hopper now. Now I have to figure out what weap to carry out on her to make her still low cost....
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FireKiller87
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PostSubject: Re: Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena)   Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena) - Page 2 EmptySun Jun 05, 2011 7:39 pm

ngelicdark wrote:
It be an interesting read lol. That's all I wanted out of this thread.



To be honest though, depending on your low cost bot to do their job also relies on you doing your job well AKA being skilled. With 120 DPS per sec with a fat ass load, you might not be able to escape, but you probably would be able to find some idiot willing to run into your face so that you can blast them to pieces before you died. Depends of course.

And then if you have a 30 DPS mobile thing, you depend on every bullet you can count on to hit SOMETHING so that your damage can rack up; contribution via being targeted on, also helps your low dps output due to the scoring system. Which is why UC players are often better off doing hopper type builds because to outdps something is far beyond their reach.



All in all, I agree with what's being said, I'm just trying to point out issues in both. The former situation seems more reliable to rely on because you always have those glass cannon AIRs/LNDs rushing at you face first, being distracted by another meat shield so that you can kaboom something. The latter relies on you simply on being good.


Meaning, all in all, this really just separates the pros from the RT feeders. Now I'm afraid I'm in the latter pool AHAHAHAHAHHA



........................



-_-''''' *glooms in a corner*


Apart from all this, this makes me want to build my Laz hopper now. Now I have to figure out what weap to carry out on her to make her still low cost....

Forget hopping Laz. Make swaying Laz. It makes you more pro.
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Hyoka
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PostSubject: Re: Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena)   Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena) - Page 2 EmptySun Jun 05, 2011 8:47 pm

Sway timing can be a little frustrating at times, especially when you don't nail it when you need it most.

Of course there's always the spamming part which anybody with fingers on steroids can do.
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PostSubject: Re: Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena)   Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena) - Page 2 EmptySun Jun 05, 2011 8:59 pm

depend on your play style but I'll go with whatever.

I still play with a 3 beezle commando on AA ranked arenas and die for < 500bp per death (I personally find it fun).
Unless you're confident that you can deal damage as much as your cost, I'd rather prefer a low cost bot.
The bees have FagGarulabird AMs on them so they should deal some good damage, before dying unless you run into a fray of TBGs
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knyx
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PostSubject: Re: Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena)   Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena) - Page 2 EmptySun Jun 05, 2011 9:02 pm

500 cost shadow hunter with a ceramic burner.

So much fun stuff.
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Aria
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PostSubject: Re: Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena)   Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena) - Page 2 EmptySun Jun 05, 2011 9:37 pm

necrodrakath wrote:
Good parts + Tunes + Player skill = Cost = Efficiency
No Skill = Cost = Boytitan cost

WTF!
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FireKiller87
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PostSubject: Re: Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena)   Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena) - Page 2 EmptySun Jun 05, 2011 9:56 pm

Hyoka wrote:
Sway timing can be a little frustrating at times, especially when you don't nail it when you need it most.

Of course there's always the spamming part which anybody with fingers on steroids can do.

It's like Sway Laz and I were meant to marry. Twisted Evil

I don't like to deal with ultra-low cost bots like Beezle and Frog...I feel as if they're cheap gimmicks. Small hitbox and low cost. However they're easy to take down with a few hits.

Therefore...
<1000 cost, level 8 Seraph with Rapid-tuned WBG and High Boost Beta-tuned Minizooka that's gonna be replaced if possible. 1x Internal'd, Quick Boost, Stun Regain. I can piss people off with 2x Wings, Seraph Tackle running off my 11 STR or Minizooka/WBG off 16 TEC, and my lifespan's extended by Stun Regain. No scrubby-ass wisps needed-just taking her out lets me harrass to my heart's content. Best part? No customization needed beyond tunes-full stock Crimrose/Seraph parts.

@Ngelic: Actually...I made a LazFlamme build that's decently cheap(1010 cost, with UC Laz parts).

【Robot Name】
LazFlamme

【Parts】
BD: LazFlamme BD
 WB: Dual Slayer Bit
 LG: LazFlamme LG
  BS: LazFlamme BS
 HD: LazFlamme HD
  HDAC: Black Layer Ribbon [Great Run Alpha]
  FCAC: Intelli Green [Great Run Alpha]
 BS: Accel Saber BS [Great Run Alpha]
 AM: Dharma Star AM [High Tech Alpha] [High Tech Alpha] [High Tech Alpha]
  WP: Combat Magnum [High Range Alpha]
 AM: Dharma Star AM [High Tech Alpha]
  WP: Buckler [Great Run Alpha]

【Config Check】
COST: OK
BS: OK
LG: OK

【Stats】
TYPE: 陸
SIZE: S
COST: 1010
CAPA: 1065
HP: 413
STR: 7
TEC: 20
WLK: 32
FLY: 5
TGH: 11

LEVEL: 10

【Cartridges】
Capacity +80×7
Blast Guard
Stun Regain
Sway

【必要素材】
Fudara Cosmos×4
Midoro Cosmos×4
Twode Cosmos×1
Red Chip×40
Green Chip×80
Black Chip×10
Stabilizer×36
Engine Shaft×68
Scope Lens×5
Drum Magazine×44
Guide Circuit×28
Snail Liquid×44


IIRC 32 is at or near a WLK breakpoint...and it's decently quick. TEC is emphasized for a drive-by type build. Stun Regain extends Laz's lifespan(you may replace this with Tough Runner for +5 cost, but if you use Sway right you won't need Tough Runner). Blast Guard protects me from the worst an enemy ART battery can throw at Laz. Alpha tunes are used to save -stats but are more expensive.
Carts are useful while also being low cost(all three carts other than Cost Capa UP are 15 cost), which is very beneficial to keeping Laz low-cost. Short Boost or Boost Run can be substituted for Sway, as both are also 15 cost.
This Laz is at 32WLK/5FLY, which is at the yellow tier of Boost Run speeds. Not super fast, but I suppose enough to make it an option.
If you get slotted Laz LG/BS, I'd tune for one more Great Run Alpha or High Speeder. Beta hits your TEC, which you may not mind.
High Speeder tune gets you into the orange tier of Boost Run speed, which makes Boost Run more of a decent option.

Combat Magnum can be substituted by Custom Magnum, although you lose 1 WLK and gain 1 FLY(which might be a good thing), and lose 100 ammo. Handy Magnum is a very low cost option(105 cost below Combat Magnum) but no stats, so you lose out on 2 WLK. You also have a slightly inferior weapon in terms of force, ammo, and range, but the low cost offsets that.

Accel Saber BS is actually slightly superior to Misty Hollow BS, I found out. +1 FLY in exchange for +5 cost. However Accel Saber BS(from Accel Saber GP) has a single slot only. Misty Hollow usually has 2 or 3 slots on her BS, so more tuning.

Using a 3-slotted Misty BS...
【Robot Name】
LazFlamme

【Parts】
BD: LazFlamme BD
 WB: Dual Slayer Bit
 LG: LazFlamme LG
  BS: LazFlamme BS
 HD: LazFlamme HD
  HDAC: Black Layer Ribbon [Great Run Alpha]
  FCAC: Intelli Green [Great Run Alpha]
 BS: Misty Hollow BS [High Speeder] [Great Run Beta] [High Tech Alpha]
 AM: Dharma Star AM [High Tech Alpha] [High Tech Alpha] [High Tech Alpha]
  WP: Combat Magnum [High Range Alpha]
 AM: Dharma Star AM [High Tech Alpha]
  WP: Buckler [Great Run Alpha]

【Config Check】
COST: OK
BS: OK
LG: OK

【Stats】
TYPE: 陸
SIZE: S
COST: 1060
CAPA: 1065
HP: 413
STR: 6
TEC: 21
WLK: 34
FLY: 7
TGH: 11

LEVEL: 10

【Cartridges】
Capacity +80×7
Blast Guard
Stun Regain
Sway

【必要素材】
Fudara Cosmos×5
Midoro Cosmos×4
Yoguru Cosmos×1
Twode Cosmos×1
Red Chip×50
Blue Chip×15
Green Chip×75
Black Chip×10
Rainbow Chip×11
Stabilizer×45
Engine Shaft×97
Turbo Charger×33
Scope Lens×5
Drum Magazine×40
Guide Circuit×35
Snail Liquid×66

Requires a lot more tuning mats. Cost is maxed out at 1060, which still is decent for a level 10 bot.
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yilx
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PostSubject: Re: Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena)   Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena) - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 06, 2011 12:44 am

Amazing ZSG build? Do share!
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PostSubject: Re: Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena)   Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena) - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 06, 2011 9:12 am

Lazyboy804 wrote:
I mostly play heavy ARTs (Sturbanger, Toybox NOT GIRL, Saggitary Maxis, amond others) and I play defensive enough to live an entire round without dying. All effeciently, no cost.

because no fast AIR bot try to hunt you through your team defense line (and believe me, when it happen, thats a great chance your team ignore or try to hunt the fast AIR and they hit nothing or almost, the fast AIR kill u and leave before boost end - work better with propeller bit or seraph)

fatarts are a keep distance from target or chances u`re screwed are great.
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pipcard
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PostSubject: Re: Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena)   Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena) - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 06, 2011 12:18 pm

I always use ultra low-cost (about 300) and UC only bots.

[EDIT: Now I use a 460-cost because of plasma gun]


Last edited by pipcard on Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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FireKiller87
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PostSubject: Re: Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena)   Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena) - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 06, 2011 3:03 pm

IronFist wrote:
Lazyboy804 wrote:
I mostly play heavy ARTs (Sturbanger, Toybox NOT GIRL, Saggitary Maxis, amond others) and I play defensive enough to live an entire round without dying. All effeciently, no cost.

because no fast AIR bot try to hunt you through your team defense line (and believe me, when it happen, thats a great chance your team ignore or try to hunt the fast AIR and they hit nothing or almost, the fast AIR kill u and leave before boost end - work better with propeller bit or seraph)

fatarts are a keep distance from target or chances u`re screwed are great.

Destructor CN with Alphastriking Missile Launchers and 2x Internal'd Bazooka. Close to 10 WLK, 10 FLY. Might take Boost Run depending on how good the speed is, and if I can improve that. Missiles take care of long range targets while Bazooka eats any Air that comes near me, including Ah-bitch and Seraph Bitchrose, alive. Remember, the Bazooka's got something like 340+ projectile speed.

Not to mention Missile Launchers are 1)110 cost only, nice and cheap, 2)fire five missiles per clip, and 3)easy to tune thanks to 3600 UC price, and come with one slot.
And if you can afford it, stick on Asura AMJ, and grab more Missile Launchers. That'll need a Great Capa tune, though. Probably multiple ones.
Or better yet, use normal Destructor(note: vulnerable to Seraph) with his better capa and AAmissiles core. Rips Airs apart even faster than CN.

EDIT: Destructor(couldn't do with CN) with 2x Asura AMJs, 4 Missile Launchers, and 2x Internal'd AAmissiles. This is your standard BoyTitan bot, optimized for as much TEC and TGH as possible, with decent fatass ART mobility, and of course gigantic cost pools. If you got a crown(or any number of stars) over your head, expect to be targeted by every enemy in the game.

BTW: I tested the crown award using my DOS alt. It appears that being slain with a crown status over your head multiplies your robot's cost by approximately 2.5x to find the BP penalty towards your team.

【Robot Name】
Destructor

【Parts】
BD: Destructor BD
 WB: Dual Rifle Bit
 LG: Big Mountaiz LG [Great Capacity] [Great Capacity] [Great Capacity]
 HD: Katana Max HD [High Tech Beta]
  HDAC: Sunflower
  FCAC: Autumn Earrings
 BS: Destructor BS [High Run Alpha]
 AM: Asura AMJ
  AM: Tengu AM [High Tech Beta]
   WP: Missile Launcher
  AM: Tengu AM [High Tech Beta]
   WP: Missile Launcher
 AM: Asura AMJ
  AM: Tengu AM [High Boost Beta]
   WP: Missile Launcher
  AM: Tengu AM
   WP: Missile Launcher

【Config Check】
COST: OK
BS: OK
LG: OK

【Stats】
TYPE: 砲
SIZE: L
COST: 1545
CAPA: 1545
HP: 532
STR: 4
TEC: 29
WLK: 8
FLY: 9
TGH: 18

LEVEL: 10

【Cartridges】
Capacity +60×7
Enhance internal weapon×2
Boost Run

【必要素材】
Fudara Cosmos×5
Midoro Cosmos×120
Yoguru Cosmos×60
Red Chip×20
Yellow Chip×5
Green Chip×25
Rainbow Chip×120
Power Amp×1800
Stabilizer×15
Engine Shaft×1809
Turbo Charger×5
Rapid Crystal×1800
Drum Magazine×3
Guide Circuit×9
Snail Liquid×7
Hulk Meteorite×600
Screw Bolts×900
Steel Wheel×900
Miracle Ammonite×300
Shining Feather×300

Good survivability with dat 532 HP. Mobility is 8 WLK, 9 FLY which is decent(you can swap Boost Run for either Beam Guard or Moving Burst, anything else will put you over cost), but not great for Boost Run. 18 TGH lets you survive long enough to run the fuck away and farm trees.
Missile Launchers deal 26 damage at 29 TEC. AAmissiles do 30 damage but aren't fired during alphastrike, so 26x4 = 104 damage per strike, assuming no guards. This needs a shitload of tune mats to find success, and you need a Big Mountaiz LG with three slots and successfully tune all three slots for Great Capa. You also need 100 RT to fund those Asura AMJs, a Katana Max HD with at least one slot, Destructor BS with at least one slot, and four Tengu AMs(which all should come with a slot). Only big RT part of this BT build is the Asura AMJs.

Your move.


Last edited by FireKiller87 on Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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UncleBobbie
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PostSubject: Re: Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena)   Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena) - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 06, 2011 3:21 pm

Idc about any of those things.
I just wanna have fun ;A;


Also, just tune 'till you drop and make sure you never die. /gg
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ngelicdark
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PostSubject: Re: Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena)   Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena) - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 06, 2011 8:25 pm

@fire:

Those look like really interesting builds, thanks. And yknow what's odd? It's like my lotto boxes knew you mentioned Dharma Star; I got one outta my box this morning @_@

I might try a swayer again, I'd love to use my rather beach-esque Lazflamme for something (tan skin and blonde hair? SO SUMMER TIME!). Although the fact she is just around 1k cost really bothers me; I might lop off some TEC to keep her below 900 cost. Also, the fact that she can only use 2 guns D: I haven't played a build in such a long time that only used two weapons totaling the damage to be less than 30 at once... Maybe I should give it another shot >< I don't think I'm pro enough/not lagproof enough to play a good nonspam swayer though. Should keep practicing..

That and I'm sure once Ivis comes out, everything LND based will be royally f*cked. If the same amount of TBGs show up as Ivis man oh man, most of my new bot builds will be totally useless...

And that's the reason why I'm refusing to let myself roll this week's gara for that scythe and Geo-G core Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena)   Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena) - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 06, 2011 10:09 pm

ngelicdark wrote:
@fire:

Those look like really interesting builds, thanks. And yknow what's odd? It's like my lotto boxes knew you mentioned Dharma Star; I got one outta my box this morning @_@

I might try a swayer again, I'd love to use my rather beach-esque Lazflamme for something (tan skin and blonde hair? SO SUMMER TIME!). Although the fact she is just around 1k cost really bothers me; I might lop off some TEC to keep her below 900 cost. Also, the fact that she can only use 2 guns D: I haven't played a build in such a long time that only used two weapons totaling the damage to be less than 30 at once... Maybe I should give it another shot >< I don't think I'm pro enough/not lagproof enough to play a good nonspam swayer though. Should keep practicing..

That and I'm sure once Ivis comes out, everything LND based will be royally f*cked. If the same amount of TBGs show up as Ivis man oh man, most of my new bot builds will be totally useless...

And that's the reason why I'm refusing to let myself roll this week's gara for that scythe and Geo-G core Sad

Ivis shouldn't be a problem. Incidentially, most players who roll Ivis(85-90%) will probably become too scrub to play her. Know why? Because her near-perma Crimson Veil will make a lot of people think, "Hey, she's immune to stun, I can just rush into a PS, rape everything, and waltz out unharmed!" The problem is, those players don't realize that Ivis's only weakness(besides Crim's absolute sexyness, heheheh) is heavy, high damage, sustained firepower, which is found near the PS in the form of fat, heavy Artillery.

Tune dat Dharma Star AM for TEC and possibly WLK. It is high cost, however, but I've yet to find a suitable replacement except for Lily Rain AM(+2 STR/TEC, +1 WLK, +20 HP for 35 cost), which I can only get unslotted. Plus the AM itself practically hugs Laz's body, which shrinks your hitbox to essentially LazFlamme's nearly anorexic body(which is still sexy for some reason).
I would not cut off some TEC unless you tune weaponry for multiple Forces. 1k cost is fairly decent for a level 10 bot, and most extremely efficient bots(beezle, frog) are about 30-60% of that cost.
Not to mention Laz has extremely high survivability using any mobility cart, plus 413 HP to offset damage.
LazFlamme with a shield is...practically invincible from the front forever or until her shield takes 70 damage. Suguri actually wrote a nice guide on LazFlamme, which if you haven't checked out already, you should. I got my inspiration to restart my LazFlamme from that, and it really covers everything you need.

If you're interested in the Destructor build, remember that you're vulnerable to Seraphs and anything that gets close to you, as your missiles won't have the distance they need to home correctly. You have more mobility than less-well made fatass ARTs, but also don't let that go to your head as you can't outrun or outfly a lot of stuff. However, your alphastriker capacity is very good(Four 20-Force Missile Launchers, plus separate quad-targeting AAmissiles), despite your high cost. Dual Rifle is for sniping attacks before alphastriking as well as finishing off fleeing enemies. This alpha does approximately 40-50 damage to Blast Guarded bots, 70-85 damage to neutral bots, and approximately 130-150 damage to Airs struck by a full blast by the alphastrike.
You can do this with Destructor CN, with approximately ~1000 cost. You get 2x Internal'd Bazooka(excellent for sweeping aside those pesky Airbots and taking down bots at close to medium range too), plus 2x 20-Force Missile Launchers. This alpha does approximately 25-40 damage to Blast Guarded bots, 50-65 damage to neutral bots, and 70-85 damage to Airs struck by a full alpha(remember, five alphas, only first four have a bazooka shell. The fifth alpha should do about 40-60 damage or so). Same deal with the Dual Rifle bit. Destructor CN cannot use the Asura AMJ Destructor build as his capacity is not high enough, even with triple Great Capa tuning.

Damage parameters are based on an assumption of full explosive components. This, of course, isn't true, so expect Blast Guard damage to be higher, and all other damages to be lower.
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PostSubject: Re: Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena)   Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena) - Page 2 EmptyTue Jun 07, 2011 7:28 pm

IronFist wrote:
Lazyboy804 wrote:
I mostly play heavy ARTs (Sturbanger, Toybox NOT GIRL, Saggitary Maxis, amond others) and I play defensive enough to live an entire round without dying. All effeciently, no cost.

because no fast AIR bot try to hunt you through your team defense line (and believe me, when it happen, thats a great chance your team ignore or try to hunt the fast AIR and they hit nothing or almost, the fast AIR kill u and leave before boost end - work better with propeller bit or seraph)

fatarts are a keep distance from target or chances u`re screwed are great.

Fast AIR trying to kill me? Challenge Accepted.
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PostSubject: Re: Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena)   Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena) - Page 2 EmptyTue Jun 07, 2011 8:50 pm

FireKiller87 wrote:
ngelicdark wrote:
@fire:

Those look like really interesting builds, thanks. And yknow what's odd? It's like my lotto boxes knew you mentioned Dharma Star; I got one outta my box this morning @_@

I might try a swayer again, I'd love to use my rather beach-esque Lazflamme for something (tan skin and blonde hair? SO SUMMER TIME!). Although the fact she is just around 1k cost really bothers me; I might lop off some TEC to keep her below 900 cost. Also, the fact that she can only use 2 guns D: I haven't played a build in such a long time that only used two weapons totaling the damage to be less than 30 at once... Maybe I should give it another shot >< I don't think I'm pro enough/not lagproof enough to play a good nonspam swayer though. Should keep practicing..

That and I'm sure once Ivis comes out, everything LND based will be royally f*cked. If the same amount of TBGs show up as Ivis man oh man, most of my new bot builds will be totally useless...

And that's the reason why I'm refusing to let myself roll this week's gara for that scythe and Geo-G core Sad

Ivis shouldn't be a problem. Incidentially, most players who roll Ivis(85-90%) will probably become too scrub to play her. Know why? Because her near-perma Crimson Veil will make a lot of people think, "Hey, she's immune to stun, I can just rush into a PS, rape everything, and waltz out unharmed!" The problem is, those players don't realize that Ivis's only weakness(besides Crim's absolute sexyness, heheheh) is heavy, high damage, sustained firepower, which is found near the PS in the form of fat, heavy Artillery.

Tune dat Dharma Star AM for TEC and possibly WLK. It is high cost, however, but I've yet to find a suitable replacement except for Lily Rain AM(+2 STR/TEC, +1 WLK, +20 HP for 35 cost), which I can only get unslotted. Plus the AM itself practically hugs Laz's body, which shrinks your hitbox to essentially LazFlamme's nearly anorexic body(which is still sexy for some reason).
I would not cut off some TEC unless you tune weaponry for multiple Forces. 1k cost is fairly decent for a level 10 bot, and most extremely efficient bots(beezle, frog) are about 30-60% of that cost.
Not to mention Laz has extremely high survivability using any mobility cart, plus 413 HP to offset damage.
LazFlamme with a shield is...practically invincible from the front forever or until her shield takes 70 damage. Suguri actually wrote a nice guide on LazFlamme, which if you haven't checked out already, you should. I got my inspiration to restart my LazFlamme from that, and it really covers everything you need.

If you're interested in the Destructor build, remember that you're vulnerable to Seraphs and anything that gets close to you, as your missiles won't have the distance they need to home correctly. You have more mobility than less-well made fatass ARTs, but also don't let that go to your head as you can't outrun or outfly a lot of stuff. However, your alphastriker capacity is very good(Four 20-Force Missile Launchers, plus separate quad-targeting AAmissiles), despite your high cost. Dual Rifle is for sniping attacks before alphastriking as well as finishing off fleeing enemies. This alpha does approximately 40-50 damage to Blast Guarded bots, 70-85 damage to neutral bots, and approximately 130-150 damage to Airs struck by a full blast by the alphastrike.
You can do this with Destructor CN, with approximately ~1000 cost. You get 2x Internal'd Bazooka(excellent for sweeping aside those pesky Airbots and taking down bots at close to medium range too), plus 2x 20-Force Missile Launchers. This alpha does approximately 25-40 damage to Blast Guarded bots, 50-65 damage to neutral bots, and 70-85 damage to Airs struck by a full alpha(remember, five alphas, only first four have a bazooka shell. The fifth alpha should do about 40-60 damage or so). Same deal with the Dual Rifle bit. Destructor CN cannot use the Asura AMJ Destructor build as his capacity is not high enough, even with triple Great Capa tuning.

Damage parameters are based on an assumption of full explosive components. This, of course, isn't true, so expect Blast Guard damage to be higher, and all other damages to be lower.

The problem isn't so much about Ivis herself; it's the swarm of Ivises that is the problem. Much like leapers were in Resistance: Fall of Man; one by itself is a laughable thing, but a swarm can kill you pretty quick if you're not careful. And even if you were, unless you were camping a corner, you're offering your ass to multiple little critters.

This game leans itself a lot on game awareness; while you're busy trying to shoot a buttload of stuff, you have to make sure you're not getting aimed at or whatever. I believe Ivis can get stealth, which makes tabbing kinda useless (and hard to do without it being in a corner or something while shooting..) and if there are multiples wandering around you and approaching from different angles...oh you're damned screwed. Unless you can fly high enough before the Ivises all close in on you.

That and if you melee 1v1 Ivis or if she catches up to you, if she still has crimson veil and is full hp, you can still lose if you're stunned by her. Sure, not being stunned=you can take damage for the Ivis player; but not if you're versus a solo target who is helpless to do anything against you.

Anyway, enough about Ivis. I've known she was coming for a long time, and I've suffered through Ivis Break. I'm prepping my team for her, and I've swallowed the pill I name reality in the upcoming metagame.





@the thread itself:

Lily Rain AMs give +1 FLY not WLK; I know that for sure because for some time, they were the replacement arms on my Crim. Two, Laz AMs aren't that bad either; and they're lower by 5 cost. I was quite confused when I popped open my cosmicalc last night to double check the build and..well..yeah. Kinda confused as to why you used that (unless you wanted a 3s UC part, then I can understand; but I have 3s Laz parts).

I'm still thinking whether Laz is okay to go for; I have two LNDs already which fill up my LND based commando; and even a fast swayer might not be able to keep up with an Ivis who will no doubt chuck her low TGH body junked into a million pieces if something goes wrong.

But then again, IIRC Ivis stuns 21+ TGH people as well. Tch. Just can't win when you're getting hit by her.

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NovaZero
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PostSubject: Re: Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena)   Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena) - Page 2 EmptyTue Jun 07, 2011 11:44 pm

ngelicdark wrote:
The problem isn't so much about Ivis herself; it's the swarm of Ivises that is the problem. Much like leapers were in Resistance: Fall of Man; one by itself is a laughable thing, but a swarm can kill you pretty quick if you're not careful. And even if you were, unless you were camping a corner, you're offering your ass to multiple little critters.
Note that we're at the point of the game where 70-80% of the rooms have at least one Ah-chan or Seraph Crim.

Quote :
This game leans itself a lot on game awareness; while you're busy trying to shoot a buttload of stuff, you have to make sure you're not getting aimed at or whatever. I believe Ivis can get stealth, which makes tabbing kinda useless (and hard to do without it being in a corner or something while shooting..) and if there are multiples wandering around you and approaching from different angles...oh you're damned screwed. Unless you can fly high enough before the Ivises all close in on you.
Broad Radar, yo.

Quote :
That and if you melee 1v1 Ivis or if she catches up to you, if she still has crimson veil and is full hp, you can still lose if you're stunned by her. Sure, not being stunned=you can take damage for the Ivis player; but not if you're versus a solo target who is helpless to do anything against you.
I don't understand what you mean here.

Quote :
Anyway, enough about Ivis. I've known she was coming for a long time, and I've suffered through Ivis Break. I'm prepping my team for her, and I've swallowed the pill I name reality in the upcoming metagame.
Umm...current metagame consists of AIR dominance. Really, all Ivis can do at this point is rape Toy-chan harder than the current bots we have that can also do that(Mai-chan, Renny Acro, Fencer and other melee related builds).

Quote :
But then again, IIRC Ivis stuns 21+ TGH people as well. Tch. Just can't win when you're getting hit by her.
Melee attacks always stun, regardless of TGH. Ivis is dangerous particularly because her Sacrifice does 8 hits.
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PostSubject: Re: Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena)   Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena) - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 13, 2011 2:32 am

ngelicdark wrote:
If your vang is going to die anyway, why bother making it 40 STR/40 WLK/3X TGH if you're going to get stunned at 3X TGH anyway, and will cost 200 more when you die?

This is why I don't tune. (replace vanguard with my around-500 cost AIR bot)
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PostSubject: Re: Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena)   Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena) - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 13, 2011 3:18 am

I tune my AIRs since I can withdraw more often than not, and on everything else I generally only tune the weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena)   Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena) - Page 2 EmptyMon Jun 13, 2011 5:08 am

such delicious walls of text. almost makes my eyes want to bleed. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena)   Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena) - Page 2 EmptyThu Jun 16, 2011 10:59 pm

I never got a broken slot before (trying to tune High Boost Alpha on Beezle AM), and I didn't know that if a tune-up fails, your cost isn't inflated. That's good to know.
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PostSubject: Re: Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena)   Your Opinion: Cost vs. Efficiency (Arena) - Page 2 EmptySat Jun 18, 2011 1:49 am

cost vs effiency...
well imo, pretty much if u at least do enough damage to kill something worth more than ur cost, ur cost efficient.

i got a 935 cost seraph with a mini zook and double beam machine gun is wonderful. i'ma get that last internal upgrade tho.

my 495 cost frog lander with short boost, sword guard, blast guard, a viper sheild, slayer bit, and a handy zook averages about 650-750 damage per life provided the opponent isn't all aquila girl, air spam gang bang, ext. which pretty much means 2 kills for 495 cost.

ofcourse if you can be efficient with a bot and not die the whole match, that's more efficient than low cost bots that can get 1 or 2 kills worth more than their cost.

but then, there aren't that many people that can use anything for extreme damage without dying... with the exception of aquila girl and toybox girl because that's just easy to do.

not sure what else to make low cost.
oh... and btw, it's entirely possible to have an aquila girl with like.. 925 cost and 40 fly. i've done it. now that was probably the best low cost bot i've had. >w>;; but i got bored and i'm gonna make it 40 tec.
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